Posted on 06/21/2024 8:21:27 PM PDT by hardspunned
Trump says that the war in Ukraine started because of NATO expansion.
(Excerpt) Read more at x.com ...
USA and NATO is not perfect and always had some problems but Russia is a whole different level of oppression you cannot begin to understand until living there
You mean like Kosovo?
Are you voting for Biden too?
“You are supporting military attacks on the American Navy. That is treasonous.”
Mods - this seems a bit over the top, especially considering he cannot back this up (I asked him to back up this claim). Perhaps a bit of time to cool off might be a good idea here?
“But the idea that Russia invaded Ukraine because it was afraid of being attacked by NATO is absurd.”
Russia was afraid of being invaded. You can make the claim that it was irrational, but there is a lot of HISTORY to back that up, at least in their minds.
Anyway, that wasn’t why they invaded Ukraine, although the invasion may have happened later anyway.
WELL, BYE!
The blame lies with Clinton. We should have allied with Russia in the 90’s.
“The blame lies with Clinton. We should have allied with Russia in the 90’s.”
That would have been best, and it was what Russia wanted, as long as the Neocons and Globalists didn’t DEMAND they take orders on things like Globohomo, cutting the dicks off of little boys, and mass Third World immigration. Teaming up with Russia, and probably India, to hold off China would pretty much made things equal in the world, leading to some stability.
But Russia’s terms were ‘unacceptable’ for this bunch - you’re either 100% with them, or you are against them - 90% wouldn’t do.
But even without being formal friends, the younger generation in Russia was starting to slip into the Western ‘Cafe and Art’ mode lifestyle, due to their access to Europe. And they were getting a bit tired of being told to go to church, or being told that the West wanted to destroy their country, or that Globohomo would destroy their society. All the Neocons had to really do was WAIT a bit longer.
But even waiting a bit longer was too much for the Neocons, so they had to rush things and militarize Ukraine...which got us to where we are now, where the young of Russia FULLY UNDERSTAND that the older generations were right all along about the Neocons wanting to destroy their country, and so now they forced to turn East - and the Neocons STILL cannot figure out why that happened.
Trump is right!
perhaps we should just stop funding NATO.
#MAGA
The Soviet Union WAS evil, and we WERE the good guys.
“The Soviet Union WAS evil, and we WERE the good guys.”
The ironic thing is that Putin agrees with the first part (at least according to his statements), and by implication, he likely also agrees with the second part.
Oh, I'm sure many of the Russian people may have believed that, because they've been fed it as a useful line of propaganda by their own government. Gullible westerners have accepted and repeated that as well. But apart from being irrational, it is clear from the actions of the government that the Russian leadership itself did not share that fear:
First, Ukraine was nowhere near being admitted to NATO -- wasn't even on a timeline of any kind. And if it ever got to the point when there was the typical years-long timeline set, Russia knows that it takes a long time for that to happen, with lots of debates, benchmarks, etc., and that any one single member state could stop it. So the alleged "fear" of Ukrainian ascension to NATO was wildly premature.
Second, if Russia truly was (even if irrationally) afraid of invasion from the West, then why risk provoking the feared NATO into a military confrontation by invading Ukraine?? Russia's invasion of Ukraine actually strengthened NATO. Keeping Sweden and Finland out of NATO has been a major strategic goal of Russia for many decades, but this war caused that exact thing to happen. It further triggered significant rearmament by member states in the exact alliance Russia supposedly feared. That is not the action of a nation afraid of western invasion.
And Third, Russia was perhaps a three years away from having most major NATO powers completely dependent upon Russian fossil fuels. That alone would have been the perfect guarantee that Russia wouldn't be invaded, and Russian leadership knew that. But they choose to give up that additional guarantee of no western invasion to invade Ukraine. Again, emphatically not the action of a country motivated by fear of conflict with the West.
Anyway, that wasn’t why they invaded Ukraine, although the invasion may have happened later anyway.
Well, if you agree that isn't why they invaded Ukraine, then why do Trump and so many others make that patently false claim? Ignorance, or dishonesty? Because those are the only two options.
“Oh, I’m sure many of the Russian people may have believed that, because they’ve been fed it as a useful line of propaganda by their own government.”
If you consider Russian HISTORY to be ‘propaganda’, then so be it. But since our version of Russian History and the European version of Russian History PERFECTLY MATCH IT, regarding how Russia has been invaded, then, I guess they must be all lying.
Nice job avoiding the entire argument that the Russian leadership isn't afraid. So I'll count you among the dishonest rather than just the ignorant.
But to address the red herring you raised about propaganda versus history, exactly which "history" are you talking about? The invasion of Russia by Napoleon in 1812? The invasions by Germany in 1914 and 1941? Because if you go just by that "history", then the French must still be afraid of being invaded by Germany, just as they were in 1870, 1914, and 1940. Because that's "history" too, right? But the French aren't afraid of being invaded by Germany. So...why not?
The answer is because history didn't stop at the end of WW2, and Russia (at least the leadership) and France both know that. Current Russia leadership is fully aware that after WW2, the Soviet Union/Russia became a nuclear armed superpower, and since the fall of the Soviet Union more than two decades ago, western militaries have dwindled to the point where the Germans don't even have a single deployable tank brigade. Not one.
You don't think the Russians know that?
Further, pacifist movements throughout western Europe (often financed/supported by Russia itself) wrought similar havoc among the military establishments throughout NATO. The nations of NATO had zero stomach for anything approaching offensive military operations against anyone, and that pacifism was only growing stronger over time.
You don't think Russian leadership was perfectly aware of that reality either?
Because I do. And that's exactly why they believed they could get away with this attempted conquest of Ukraine without triggering NATO military intervention. In other words, Russia invaded Ukraine because it wasn't afraid of NATO.
“Nice job avoiding the entire argument that the Russian leadership isn’t afraid.”
No idea what you’re blabbering about...
Sure you don't. You respond only to the very first part of my post, ignore the rest, and now claim "I don't know what you're talking about" when I point out what you ignored.
As I said, some people who believe propaganda are just gullible, and some are deliberately dishonest.
“As I said, some people who believe propaganda are just gullible, and some are deliberately dishonest.”
Some day I’ll decode your blabbering, but probably not today.
In the modern world, France and Germany, Poland, Spain, the Balkans, Ukraine, Holland, Finland etc. don’t have the old history based fears of invasion and war with each other, yet Russia claims it constantly and of everyone, and has just launched that very thing yet again creating the biggest European War since the old days and WWII in an old timey return to conquest and absorbing neighbors, they barely took any breather after 1991.
It's just an excuse, not the actual reason.
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