Posted on 03/19/2023 1:42:56 PM PDT by Navy Patriot
I was just talking about hypersonic missiles not who’s winning the war which I don’t really care about
The chess board is Ukraine playing chess while Pooptin is playing tic tac toe
A few months into the war?
If the war was stopped by you in march then Russia would have controlled 27% of Ukraine as opposed to 15% today.
If you stopped the war in July then the Russians would have controlled kherson and kharkiv which theg don’t control today.
If the war was stopped by you in October then kherson would still be in Russian hands
Russia started this 2/22 war aiming for a settlement with limited war of around 2-3 on a 10 scale of capability wise
Running around 6-7 now with the big push coming at some point
They are not happy being mislead in talks last spring early summer and are grinding down uke forces
It’s a travesty Ukraine could never win alone despite the bravery and dedication of their infantry and arty troops
Russian terms were
Ukraine stay neutral and not join NATO
Ukraine would have to disarm so as not to be a threat to Russia
There would be protections for Russians and the Russian language in Ukraine.
Ukraine would de Nazify
Ukraine would formally accept Russia's annexation of Crimea
Face to Face negotiation on status of territory in ethnic Russian areas of eastern Ukraine TBD
What deal are you talking about?
Btw, Zelensky is a native Russian speaker
These were Putin's publicly stated starting point for a negotiated settlement
From BBC reporting.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60785754
The Russian terms, in retrospect, seem pretty reasonable.
Items like de nazification, recognition of Russian language and other minor terms were probably face saving details to support Russia's justification for military action.
Russian nationals were being suppressed in Eastern Ukraine, so that probably is a legit concern.
Crimea was a done deal so formal recognition of that reality was not too much of a concession
Russia was given guarantees that Ukraine would be neutral and not a part of NATO as part of their withdrawal from Ukraine in the 1990s. Russia has made it clear that breaking that agreement and Ukraine joining NATO was unacceptable and result in action so that term was not to unreasonable.
So the main issue for negotiation was the status of the territory in Eastern Ukraine. Based on Russian propaganda at the time, some sort of autonomy in the heavily ethnic Russian regions in East Ukraine was the goal of the so called "special military action" and some agreement addressing that could have sealed the deal
Note that Russia in March had 4 demands:
1. Ukraine to be neutral and not apply to join NATO
2. Ukraine to be disarmed
3. “Protection for the Russian language in Ukraine”
4. “De-Nazification”
These are in Russian terms
1. Ukraine not to have any allies to help it in case Russia invades
2. Ukraine to not have any weapons to defend itself when Russia invades
3. Russian to replace Ukraine as the language of government and instruction in the East, to prepare that area for annexation by Russia
4. A “Nazi” in Putin speak is anyone who does not want to be under the Kremlin’s thumb.
Those aren’t “reasonable” by any means
Russian "nationals" --> in the same way you probably think that the USA "suppresses" Mexican and El Salvadoran nationals?
"Ethnic Russians" or "Russian speakers are not "suppressed" as you claim - I am basing my conclusion on the experience I had in hosting refugees from Ukraine here in Poland -- I live right next to the border, Most of the refugees I helped were escaping Kyiv but also those escaping Donetsk and Luhansk
All were primarily Russian speakers. Some identified as "ethnic Russian", but they all said they were Ukrainian
I have asked them (we're in contact with quite a few of them even though they moved either back to Kyiv (for the Kyiv folks) or to Krakow/Warszawa for others - anyway so I asked them if they, the Russian ethnic people or Russian speakers felt "oppressed"
The response, the overwhelming response from them regarding this was - utter bewilderment. They all said that they didn't feel oppressed, suppressed for being Russian or /Russian speakers. They all also were P*ssed off wth putin for "saving" them by destroying their cities, their homes
Before 2014 they felt close to Russia. After Putin's invasion in 2022, they identify as Ukrainian - and they were taking efforts to speak only Ukrainian -- as a personal sign of defiance against Putin
So Putin has actually turned Russian ethnics in Ukraine against being "Russian"
Furthermore, I have colleagues who live and work in Krakow and have lived there since 2014 -- Russian "ethnics", Russian speakers who fled Putin's 2014 invasion and came to Poland, not to Russia.
So don't repeat the Putinist propaganda please
No, it was not a "done deal"
Based on an official United Nations vote, 17 countries recognize Russia’s annexation of Crimea, and 114 do not. Only 17 countries, including Russia, recognized that annexation
That there is an utter lie
The Budapest Memorandum had nothing about NATO -- but it did have that Russia would respect Ukraine's borders as of 1994 -- which Putin re-affirmed in 2004 --> and Russia reneged on its stance in 2014
For peace Russia needs to leave Ukraine.
Both you and I know the "Battle Plan" began to be modified about 24 hours after Engagement, as is always the case. The Battle Plan that should be discussed is the Battle Plan for 3/21/2023.
No one is "happy" about this war except the GloboHomoNazis.
The question addressed by this thread is: does Russia have better Hypersonic Systems than they admit?
Personal Computer High Tech and PC Processor High Speeds of 1990 are no longer High Tech and High Speed BECAUSE they are Old, Low and Slow in 2023.
Additionally, you are missing the point in question: Why does Russia (and/or Putin) consider their First Generation Hypersonic not Hypersonic.
Sorry for misspelling “hypersonic.” Fat fingers.
However, “hypersonic” means something very specific. Objects/munitions traveling at speeds above Mach 5. I thought you would know that.
So, if the labeling has changed, it means that the munitions now travel at speeds lower than Mach 5, which I doubt, or they no longer can travel at those speeds, which I also doubt. I thought you would know that also.
So I don’t think the label change means anything. There’s your answer.
I’m pretty sure Putin regrets the way they handled the special military op et action and trusting western diplomacy
What the dictionary says words mean is not what is in question here, it is WHY Putin chose to refer to Russia's First Generation Hypersonics as Not Hypersonic.
The dictionary was not speaking, Putin was.
... I don’t think the label change means anything.
OK! That's your answer, it very well may be the correct one, and it is what I was asking the thread for, thanks.
Meanwhile we'll be watching for more Hypersonics and adaptations in the War.
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