No, the POINT IS that Biden made that statement BEFORE the 2022 invasion at the same time Putin was insisting that Ukraine not be admitted to NATO. That is why I chose the statement made BEFORE the invasion. Why do you think Putin finally resorted to the military option after trying everything else?
Yes, Zelensky said he would forego NATO membership in 2022 when he was wanting to negotiate rather than have this war — but we said no to negotiations. And Z had grown jaded re promises of official NATO membership that had never panned out, too. We kept dancing that carrot, but never delivered.
What has been said after the invasion is not germane to subject under discussion: why Putin invaded, and when Putin at last resorted to the military option, he began with the lowest rung on the escalation ladder once one has climbed to military intervention with his tiny force called a “special operation”.
But, as you illogically seem to think what was said *after* the invasion has anything to with the subject at hand (why the invasion and why begun as it was), yes, we doubled down on pledging that Ukraine would become a NATO member, repeating it several times since the invasion:
Headline: NATO renews membership vow to Ukraine, pledges arms and aid
Date: November 29, 2022
Link: https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-putin-nato-europe-romania-4b073dd620cad097f22106e6a29c859c
BTW, I wrote “doubled down” before looking up a link for proof, and found it amusing the journo had also used that phrase. I notice you never provide any proof of your assertions.
No, I am not way off. I closely followed all this back in 2014. Obviously, you did not.
***Can you not read???*** I wrote we started building that naval base AFTER Putin grabbed Crimea! Yes, in 2017! Does it matter whether that article was three months or three years after Putin snagged Crimea? It has nothing whatsoever to do with the loose talk of making Sebastopol into a NATO naval base before Putin grabbed it in 2014. And of course it was near ODESSA! They couldn’t exactly build in Putin’s Crimea, could they?
You seem to be challenged on cause/effect. On both counts above. Cause comes before effect. You seem to think things can cause something to happen in the past.
To make it simple, I repeat: There was loose talk going around about turning Sevastopol into a NATO naval base in 2014 BEFORE Putin grabbed Crimea. This talk very likely factored into Putin’s decision to grab it. He may have grabbed it anyway, without the loose talk, because he feared this would happen if Ukraine succeeded to NATO membership in the future. So he opportunistically grabbed it while he had the chance. After Putin put the kibosh on that scheme, we built a naval base near Odessa. Which served as a NATO port hosting NATO exercises in the Black Sea. To say nya-nya and neener-neener to Putin. And to highlight that we considered Ukraine a de facto junior member of NATO.*
I have not lied, as you falsely accuse. You have either lied by deliberately misrepresenting my post, or else you are mentally confused about timelines and the fact that cause precedes effect, not the other way round. You owe me an apology, but I gather from your tactics that you are not man to enough to do that. I normally give people the benefit of the doubt, that there has simply been a misunderstanding or misreading. But when someone starts with the false accusations and insults as you have, well, that goes out the window.
*We were obviously using Ukraine as a de facto NATO member, taking advantage of it. We held NATO exercises there, both on land and sea. So Ukraine got the risk involved, but not the defense guarantee. We kinda used them, eh? Provoked Russia on their territory, but did not formally pledge to defend it with our own blood. They got benefits, though: we were arming, equipping and training their military. And moola, lots of moola. The neocons got the benefit of getting to goad the Russians into a proxy war with NATO, but without the risk of having to spill American blood once Putin had enough.
“No, the POINT IS that Biden made that statement BEFORE the 2022 invasion at the same time Putin was insisting that Ukraine not be admitted to NATO. That is why I chose the statement made BEFORE the invasion. Why do you think Putin finally resorted to the military option after trying everything else?”
Nonsense. For years there have been four NATO nations on Russia’s borders but Russia never invaded them. So, this excuse that Putin invaded Ukraine because it MIGHT at some time in the future join NATO as a member state doesn’t hold water. Russia invaded Ukraine because it wants Ukraine’s resources, which is what all nation’s with imperial designs generally do.
“Yes, Zelensky said he would forego NATO membership in 2022 when he was wanting to negotiate rather than have this war...”
He already HAD “this war” because Russia had already invaded.
“...but we said no to negotiations.”
You just contradicted yourself. He made that concession in negotiations. And negotiations broke down because (1) Russia wasn’t serious about them; and (2) the atrocity at Bucha came to light.
“And Z had grown jaded re promises of official NATO membership that had never panned out, too. We kept dancing that carrot, but never delivered.”
Because Ukraine during that period had not met the conditions for even being invited into NATO.
Here is an article on the process:
https://www.anews.com.tr/world/2022/05/17/nato-membership-requires-long-multi-step-process
“What has been said after the invasion is not germane to subject under discussion: why Putin invaded, and when Putin at last resorted to the military option, he began with the lowest rung on the escalation ladder once one has climbed to military intervention with his tiny force called a ‘special operation’.”
You do know, I presume, that Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014 and illegally annexed Crimea? And committed forces in the Donbas to fight along with the Russian-backed separatists against Ukraine? And then you have the chutzpah to say the 2022 invasion was carried out by a TINY FORCE?
You lack any credibility. You have shown that you will distort and misrepresent and outright lie to advance your pro-Kremlin views.
“No, I am not way off. I closely followed all this back in 2014. Obviously, you did not.”
I obviously did. Because I presented you with facts, not distortions and misrepresentations and lies, which is your SOP.
“I wrote we started building that naval base AFTER Putin grabbed Crimea! Yes, in 2017! Does it matter whether that article was three months or three years after Putin snagged Crimea? It has nothing whatsoever to do with the loose talk of making Sebastopol into a NATO naval base before Putin grabbed it in 2014. And of course it was near ODESSA! They couldn’t exactly build in Putin’s Crimea, could they?”
This is what you said: “Back in 2014 around putsch time, there was loose talk from American lips about turning Sebastopol (then leased to Russia under agreement made at independence) into a NATO port. Oops! Putin grabbed it. So we built a naval base for NATO not far away (but not as cool as having Sevastopol would have been).” And you attached a link that said absolutely nothing about Sevastopol or “loose talk from American lips.” And you incredibly say that because of these “loose American lips” Russia GRABBED the Sevastopol navy base. Russia had already been occupying that navy base for years, pursuant to a 20-year lease that was set to run till 2017. They didn’t have to GRAB anything; all they had to do was tear up the lease (which Russia did in 2014) and not vacate. At which point Russia became heavily armed squatters. Where is the evidence that NATO planned a naval base at Sevastopol, especially with Russia occupying it? Trot it out!
“You seem to be challenged on cause/effect. On both counts above. Cause comes before effect. You seem to think things can cause something to happen in the past.”
Nice try. Your attempt at misdirection will not work.
“To make it simple, I repeat: There was loose talk going around about turning Sevastopol into a NATO naval base in 2014 BEFORE Putin grabbed Crimea. This talk very likely factored into Putin’s decision to grab it.”
Please post your evidence about this loose talk.
“He may have grabbed it anyway...”
Gee, ya think?
“...without the loose talk, because he feared this would happen if Ukraine succeeded to NATO membership in the future.”
Nonsense. Russia was already firmly in control of the base at Sevastopol. Kind of like the US at Guantanamo in Cuba. Russia wasn’t going to be kicked out of Sevastopol just as the US wasn’t going to be kicked out of Guantanamo.
“So he opportunistically grabbed it while he had the chance.”
He grabbed it because he knew at the time there was a fickle West in general and US in particular.
“After Putin put the kibosh on that scheme...”
Again, post your evidence that there was a “scheme.” And, I mean from a credible source, not some nameless and faceless blogger.
“...we built a naval base near Odessa. Which served as a NATO port hosting NATO exercises in the Black Sea. To say nya-nya and neener-neener to Putin.”
How old are you? Eleven?
“And to highlight that we considered Ukraine a de facto junior member of NATO.”
Ukraine was a non-NATO partner in the Partnership for Peace program, as are some 20 other non-NATO countries around the globe. Those countries can join in NATO exercises or not, whatever they chose: They are under no NATO obligation to do anything re: mutual defense. Do you know who is also a member of the NATO Partnership for Peace program? Russia, and it has been since 1994.