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Colonel Knutov compared the plan of the spring offensive of the Ukrainian Armed Forces in the Crimea with the Tatar-Mongol invasion
Moskovskij Komsomolets ^ | 2/16/2023 | Daria Fedotova

Posted on 02/16/2023 10:02:57 AM PST by Zhang Fei

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1 posted on 02/16/2023 10:02:57 AM PST by Zhang Fei
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To: marcusmaximus; Paul R.; Bruce Campbells Chin; PIF; familyop; MercyFlush; tet68; BeauBo; TalBlack; ..

Ukraine ping

Very ahistorical analogy that asserts the Mongol invasions were human wave attacks where hordes of attackers overwhelmed the defenders with wave after wave of disposable troops. In reality, the Mongols were always greatly outnumbered and near the end of their tether, supply-wise. They relied on combined arms maneuver, superior training and deception to achieve their war aims. Subotai, the winningest commander in Mongol history, is probably one of a handful of men comparable to Alexander in his military exploits:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subutai#Legacy
[”No Mongol general played a greater role than Subotei Ba’atur in establishing and maintaining the early Mongol Empire. Trusted commander and retainer of Chinggis, later highly respected servant of Ogodei and Guyuk, Subotei served with great distinction in every phase of Mongolian national development during the first four decades of empire. When he first entered the service of Temujin, the later Cinggis Qan, the realm of that minor Mongol chieftain comprised only a few families. In his old age, Subotei saw a mighty dominion stretching from the borders of Hungary to the Sea of Japan, from the outskirts of Novgorod to the Persian Gulf and the Yangtze River. He had no small part in creating it.”
— Paul Buell[56]

In a unique historical anomaly, the strategic and operational innovations of Genghis Khan and Subutai became lost in history, and others were forced to rediscover them 600 and 700 years later. Even though Subutai had devastated the armies of Russia, Georgia, Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria, and Latin Constantinople in a series of one-sided campaigns, Western military leaders, historians, and theorists completely ignored him until the 20th century.[57] The Mongols did not operate as one distinct mass, but instead moved along 3–5 axes of approach, often 500–1000 km apart, and threatened numerous objectives simultaneously. Like Napoleon, Subutai (and Genghis Khan) would disperse their forces along a wide frontage and rapidly coalesce at decisive points to defeat the enemy in detail. Their methods were aligned to completely crush the enemy state’s will to fight.[58] Subutai has been credited as the first general to operate campaigns using the modern organizational methods of command and control.[59]

Though unknown to the west for many centuries, Subutai’s exploits were featured by the British military theorist B. H. Liddell Hart in his book Great Captains Unveiled after World War I. Liddell Hart used the example of the Mongols under Genghis and Subutai to demonstrate how a mechanized army could fight using the principles of mobility, dispersion and surprise. Due to his innovative battle tactics and novelty in strategy he is a source of inspiration for later generals. In particular, Erwin Rommel and George Patton were avid students of Mongol campaigns.[60]
‘Deep Battle’ theory
Main article: Deep Battle

Russia derived the most use out of a careful study of the Mongol campaigns. Their closer proximity to the steppe gave them greater interest and access to the Mongolian campaigns, first analyzed by the Russian General Mikhail Ivanin in the 19th century, which became a recommended text in the Russian military academies up until the mid 20th century.[61] Ivanin’s work became used in the Deep Battle doctrine developed by Soviet Marshal Mikhail Tukhachevsky, Mikhail Frunze, and G. S. Isserson. Deep Battle doctrine bore a heavy resemblance to Mongol strategic methods, substituting tanks, motorized troop carriers, artillery, and airplanes for Mongol horse archers, lancers, and field artillery. The Red Army even went so far as to copy Subutai’s use of smokescreens on the battlefield to cover troop movements.[62] Later in the 20th century, American military theorist John Boyd and some of his followers used Genghis Khan and Subutai’s campaigns as examples of maneuver warfare.[63] ]


To the extent Ukraine’s situation is comparable to what the Mongols faced - it’s that Ukraine is outnumbered. But Ukraine is also outgunned. For it to expel the Russian expeditionary force from its soil, it will have display in microcosm, some of the ingenuity and resourcefulness that propelled Subotai towards victory after victory. While Ukraine has done very well with the limited resources given, the unanswered question is whether it has that extra left over to finish the job and take back all that was lost in 2014, using the hodgepodge of relative handfuls of Western hand-me-downs to be disbursed in fits and starts throughout 2023.


2 posted on 02/16/2023 10:03:24 AM PST by Zhang Fei (My dad had a Delta 88. That was a car. It was like driving your living room)
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To: Zhang Fei

“Zelensky said that he intends to increase the army to a million people to attack the Crimea”

Are they going to draft teenagers?

This is criminal. Zelensky/NATO/USA are butchering the people of Ukraine.


3 posted on 02/16/2023 10:19:48 AM PST by laplata (They want each crisis to take the greatest toll possible.)
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To: Zhang Fei
Zelensky said that he intends to increase the army to a million people to attack the Crimea.

Finally says it. Russia will never surrender Crimea.

4 posted on 02/16/2023 10:19:50 AM PST by Karliner (Heb 4:12 Rom 8:28 Rev 3, "...This is the end of the beginning." Churchill)
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To: Zhang Fei

That really cheapens the sacrifices that were made to stop the Mongols. Ridiculous hyperbole.


5 posted on 02/16/2023 10:31:20 AM PST by Seruzawa ("The Political left is the Garden of Eden of incompetence" - Marx the Smarter (Groucho))
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To: Zhang Fei
u-https-promum-com-ua-wp-content-uploads-2019-02-FAE9-CE5-C-223-B-4772-899-B-C4-BE16-C3-F193
6 posted on 02/16/2023 10:46:16 AM PST by Nervous Tick (Truth is not hate speech.)
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To: Zhang Fei
u-https-media-tenor-com-images-594598fe9238595f5d54a04bfdd28288-tenor
7 posted on 02/16/2023 10:48:25 AM PST by Nervous Tick (Truth is not hate speech.)
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To: Zhang Fei
Screen-Shot-2023-02-16-at-1-37-08-PM

Screen-Shot-2023-02-16-at-1-37-29-PM

Look at these two charts comparing demographics of USA (Ie. a normal country) vs. Ukraine. Notice the curves.

Ukraine hasn't had a census in 22 years, so this chart is only an estimate from the UN. The UN stupidly estimates that Ukraine has the same number of people as it did 22 years ago, which is manifestly FALSE

Nonetheless - where are all Ukraine's 15-35 year olds?? they don't exist.

They were never conceived, they were aborted, or if they were born, they left the country - and not just in the last year, but over the last 30 years.

So who is going to join Zelensky's army? Who is going to have babies that will defend Ukraine in 20 years?

Given that rump Ukraine is probably down to about 20 million people, and that as many has 400K soldiers are already killed or wounded - Zelensky's comment that he's going raise a million-man army is pure lies and gas-lighting.

Ukraine was already a failed, dying state. Its corpse was being fed upon, first by Russian oligarchs, then by US neocons and American oligarchs like Hunter Biden.

The Russian invasion merely pushed it into the grave

8 posted on 02/16/2023 10:52:50 AM PST by PGR88 (, )
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To: Zhang Fei

The problem with a look that far back in history is the Russians and Ukrainians were the same, at least from the nationhood aspect of Kievan Rus before the Golden Horde.

AS they exist now, both nations share the same past and history.

Did General Lee study Washington’s campaigns to win battles or did Grant... Or both?


9 posted on 02/16/2023 10:56:57 AM PST by Alas Babylon! (Gov't declaring misinformation is tyranny: “Who determines what false information is?” )
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To: Zhang Fei

Most significant is that a Russian general is discussing a huge UKRAINIAN offensive and that Russia must prepare defensive fortifications.

While Ukraine is increasing its overall manpower, the most significant development is tens of thousands of armored troops to be introduced this Spring. They are training with Bradley’s, tanks will just be an icing on the cake.

These highly maneuvering forces are expected to enable the Ukrainians to be able to push the Russians out. That won’t be immediate, it will be a lengthy process, unless the Russian lines crumble.

But if the Russians were simply going to overwhelm Ukraine with a winter offensive, they wouldn’t be talking about building a defense against attacks in April.

So the response of neocommunists here is that Ukraine is “criminal” for building such a large army. That is laughable.


10 posted on 02/16/2023 10:59:24 AM PST by Williams (Stop Tolerating The Intolerant)
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To: PGR88
as many has 400K soldiers are already killed or wounded

I am not disputing that number, but could you support it with a citation?

What are the actual numbers of killed and wounded on both sides? It's difficult to wade through the numbers being thrown about.

11 posted on 02/16/2023 11:04:12 AM PST by Jeff Chandler (THE ISSUE IS NEVER THE ISSUE. THE REVOLUTION IS THE ISSUE.)
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To: Williams

“So the response of neocommunists here is that Ukraine is “criminal” for building such a large army. That is laughable”

You are laughable for thinking Ukraine has the manpower to build such a large army.

You appear to have absolutely no consideration for reality or human life.. Hate controls you.


12 posted on 02/16/2023 11:04:31 AM PST by laplata (They want each crisis to take the greatest toll possible.)
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To: Williams
Ukraine . . . training with Bradley’s

How many Bradleys?

13 posted on 02/16/2023 11:05:23 AM PST by Jeff Chandler (THE ISSUE IS NEVER THE ISSUE. THE REVOLUTION IS THE ISSUE.)
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To: PGR88

You can write all the twisted bizarre things you want about Ukraine, but they are kicking Russia’s behind.
And they are about to launch a major offensive in Spring, not with mass troops, but with new armored units against the massed Russian forces.

Russia knows this is coming, read the article the Russian General describing how Ukraine will attempt to take Crimea.

He wasn’t writing about taking Kiev.

Not bad for what you describe as a “rump” state entering the “graveyard”

Maybe you should write articles for the Russian generals. They are far more realistic than you.


14 posted on 02/16/2023 11:05:38 AM PST by Williams (Stop Tolerating The Intolerant)
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To: Jeff Chandler

Enough to support 70,000 new armor backed troops. That’s what’s training in the US and Europe right now.

That’s why the Russian general is talking about Uke attempts to cut Crimea in half. They aren’t going to do that with a mass of infantry, they will do it by exploiting weaknesses and driving around the Russian lines with mechanized divisions.

If you read articles on this, the Americans have been discussing the Ukrainians adopting these highly mobile tactics.

I don’t predict outcomes, just sharing what I see.


15 posted on 02/16/2023 11:11:13 AM PST by Williams (Stop Tolerating The Intolerant)
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To: Williams

How many Bradleys?


16 posted on 02/16/2023 11:13:41 AM PST by Jeff Chandler (THE ISSUE IS NEVER THE ISSUE. THE REVOLUTION IS THE ISSUE.)
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To: laplata

Who do I hate dude?
If you’d read instead of foam, you’d know I explained the Spring offensive will NOT involve massed troops, it will be spearheaded by new mechanized units who will be introduced in Spring.

Everybody knows this is coming. It’s American mobile tactics and involves the quickest advances with the least loss of life.

That’s just reality. The Russians know it’s coming.


17 posted on 02/16/2023 11:15:52 AM PST by Williams (Stop Tolerating The Intolerant)
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To: Jeff Chandler

Go find out. If you don’t understand any of this, what good is it to tell you the details?

This is the plan for the Spring offensive. I’m sorry if you don’t like it.


18 posted on 02/16/2023 11:17:28 AM PST by Williams (Stop Tolerating The Intolerant)
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To: laplata

Translation:

Stomping feet—why doesnt Ukraine just give up to my Lord and Savior Putin!!!


19 posted on 02/16/2023 11:22:14 AM PST by FreshPrince
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To: Zhang Fei
Ukrainian troop giving Nazi salute.
D0-E88789-38-C6-4-E49-977-D-822-F5-D1200-EE
20 posted on 02/16/2023 11:22:35 AM PST by The Louiswu (Michael Ries)
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