Ukraine needs Ukrainian heroes alive: Zelensky spoke about the evacuation of azovstal defenders

https://news.obozrevatel.com ^ | 17.05.2022 | Sofia Zakrevskaya

[woodpusher]

I’m not sure that failure to imagine how evil, or ill, Putin was constitutes leading Ukraine down a primrose path to war.

And if Ukraine had not gone about failing to implement the Minsk ceasefire agreements, and blathering about becoming a member of NATO, it would not have invited Russia to visit an attitude adjustment upon them. Russia's doctrine toward Ukraine was as clear as the USA Monroe/Polk doctrine claiming two continents.

Beyond the issue of right and wrong, there is the issue of poking the bear when the bear is the biggest, baddest SOB in the valley and can kick your ass. Relying on others to put boots on the ground to fight your war is not a wise choice if it involves Russia and an unwinnable war. Nobody was obligated and nobody volunteered for that one.

Nobody had to imagine that Putin would do what he considered necessary. That's like putting missiles in Cuba and being surprised that the reaction was a naval blockade (an international act of war) and a threat to carry forward to a nuclear war if needed. That was not considered evil or ill when we did it.

[woodpusher]

Putin put out the red lines and we chose to cross them. The war could have been avoided.

There was never the unanimous consent required for admission, but some folks liked to poke the bear. Here is a Zelensky example. Some NATO officials also spoke of admitting Ukraine.

https://twitter.com/ZelenskyyUa/status/1404512788966514689

@ZelenskyyUa
Ukraine government official

Commend @NATO partners' understanding of all the risks and challenges we face. NATO leaders confirmed that [Ukraine] will become a member of the Alliance & the #MAP is an integral part of the membership process. [Ukraine] deserves due appreciation of its role in ensuring Euro-Atlantic security

1:55 PM · Jun 14, 2021·Twitter Web App

Zelensky can be a bit reckless, as when he announced the visit of U.S. officials before they arrived in Kyiv.

With the US-Ukraine Charter on Strategic Partnership Secretary of State Blinken made a show of poking the bear. When Putin eventually responded with a full scale invasion, there was little to no support to put boots on the ground to aid Ukraine. There is the politics of diplomacy. When that fails, there is the politics of coercion. War is when the troops go in to clean up a mess made by diplomats.

This is sort of the Minsk Accords failed. That was a ceasefire agreement. Russia is settling the issue that was supposed to have been settled in 2015.

[kabar]

After the dismal performance by the Russian military in Ukraine, I doubt Putin is thinking about invading anyone.

[gleeaikin]

JFK was reacting to Russia putting nukes 90 miles from our shores. I don’t recall that there was any suggestion of putting nukes in Ukraine, especially since they had voluntarily given up the ones they had. UK and France have nukes. How many other NATO members have hem set up and aimed at Russia, 90 miles away at that? This was a blatant invasion attempting to take over all of Ukraine and its resource riches in the east. Since the total takeover failed, east Ukraine is Putin’s fall back position. His multi months deployment of large numbers of troops all around Ukraine’s eastern perimeter was a blatant provocation, and very hard to ignore without looking like wimps. I doubt there is anything that could have stopped Putin short of nuclear threats by the west.

[Kevmo]

thanks for the ping

I’ve got woodsucker on ignore mode, you bring up some good points

[Antioch]

I understand that. But the EU governments are gripped in such a hysterical Red Scare and none of them could survive a vote to unfreeze the funds so it’s effectively stolen. They’ve gone beyond freezing too as they’re working on plans to just hand the money over to Zelenski and his cronies. That’s pure lawless theft. It would be like the US handing Iran’s frozen assets to Saddaam just to piss them off. This will only hurt us. If we have no respect for the intrinsic value of the dollar, how can we expect other governments to value it?

[Antioch]

That reciprocity doesn’t work here. Although Russia is caring for Ukrainian prisoners and giving them unlimited phone time with their families. Ukraine isn’t doing that as the majority of Russian prisoners have been tortured and killed. We know that from the many videos that the Ukrainian forces gleefully post of beatings, disembowelments, stabbings and castrations. Even the original Nazis more or less adhered to the Geneva convention. Rwanda or ISIS is a more fair comparison to Ukraine.

[Kevmo]

Ukraine isn’t doing that as the majority of Russian prisoners have been tortured and killed.
***I call bullshiite. It goes right back to the need for the red cross/UN to be engaged in prisoner exchanges , wherein the middle party of the conflict holds both parties.

[Kevmo]

Ukraine isn’t doing that as the majority of Russian prisoners have been tortured and killed.
***I call bullshiite. Either way, the right thing to do is to do is to generate a solution where both sides’ prisoners are simply sent to the UN commission that is applicable.

[Antioch]

Here’s the evidence. (If you can stomach it). Remember, it’s easier to keep believing a lie than to realize you’ve been lied to.

https://southfront.org/overview-18-more-evidence-of-murders-torture-of-russian-pows-by-ukrainian-nazis/?

[Kevmo]

The evidence?

Will you acknowledge that Russia invaded Ukraine?

I can’t get a single poster from your side to acknowledge simple truths which are acknowledged from both sides on the media.

[ought-six]

“I doubt there is anything that could have stopped Putin short of nuclear threats by the west.”

Yup.

[Kevmo]

What would have stopped Putin was the simple projection of strength. Libtards hate doing that.

[Kevmo]

What would have stopped Putin was the simple projection of strength. Libtards hate doing that.

[Kevmo]

Non-negotiable.
***Then why did they negotiate it away a few years before in 1994?

The whole reason this is taking place was that oil/gas reserves were found in the region plus the traditional Russian desire for warm ports and grain. This is a simple war of conquest.

[kabar]

The territory of the Ukrainian state claimed by the government in Kyiv was assembled, not by Ukrainians themselves but by outsiders, and took its present form following the end of World War II. To think of it as a traditional or primordial whole is absurd. This applies a fortiori to the two most recent additions to Ukraine—that of some eastern portions of interwar Poland and Czechoslovakia, annexed by Stalin at the end of the war, and the largely Russian-speaking Crimea, which was transferred from the Russian Socialist Federated Soviet Republic (RSFSR) well after the war, when Nikita Khrushchev controlled the Communist Party of the Soviet Union.

Since all constituent parts of the USSR were ruled from Moscow, it seemed at the time a paper transfer of no practical significance. (Even then, the city of Sevastopol, the headquarters of the Black Sea Fleet, was subordinated directly to Moscow, not Kyiv.) Up to then, the Crimea had been considered an integral part of Russia since Catherine II “the Great” conquered it in the 18th century.

As for the future, the only thing that will convince Moscow to withdraw its military support from the separatist regimes in the Donbas will be Kyiv’s willingness to implement the Minsk agreement.

As for the Crimea,it is likely to be a de facto part of Russia for the foreseeable future, whether or not the West recognizes that as “legal.” For decades, the U.S. and most of its Western allies refused to recognize the incorporation of the three Baltic countries in the Soviet Union. This eventually was an important factor in their liberation. However, the Crimea is quite different in one key respect: most of its people, being Russian, prefer to be in Russia. In fact, one can argue that it is in the political interest of Ukrainian nationalists to have Crimea in Russia. Without the votes from Crimea, Viktor Yanukovich would never have been elected president.

[Antioch]

Yes they invaded Ukraine. And? Is that some kind of moral redline? The US invaded Afghanistan, Iraq, Grenada, Panama….etc etc… So we’ve been the aggressor many times too, right? Or is invasion ok when it gets the approval of the military industrial complex, lies during congressional testimony and a thumbs up from main stream media?

[Antioch]

“What would have stopped Putin was a simple embargo of transgender hookup apps from California.” I swear that’s the mentality of the Dems. In case you hadn’t noticed Russia doesn’t need what we’re selling. In fact, the inverse is true.

[Kevmo]

Yes they invaded Ukraine. And? Is that some kind of moral redline?
***Apparently so, because you are the first from your side to actually answer that question.

The US invaded Afghanistan, Iraq, Grenada, Panama….etc etc…
***Yes we did. Check my home page for the emBASEee strategee.

So we’ve been the aggressor many times too, right?
***Those were not invasions of conquest like this one. Russia invades to take oil/gas/ports/land/grain/resources. We invaded those places to take out leaders who were doing wrong. Panama in particular is a negative example of invading for conquest.

Or is invasion ok when it gets the approval of the military industrial complex,
***So... you’re trying to justify this invasion of Russia’s neighbor who wuzn’t doin’ nuthin’ to provoke it?

lies during congressional testimony and a thumbs up from main stream media?
***You listen to your justifications for invasion, I’ll listen to mine. I can see from mile away that mine are far superior. The last time a tyrant bully invaded his neighbor over oil&gas rights he was kicked to Iraq by a coalition of about 40 nations, this time it looks more like 30.

[Kevmo]

“quoting someone else wrongly is bullshit”