Posted on 05/07/2022 1:00:32 PM PDT by ganeemead
What do Poland, Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania have in common?
They went in two months from almost 100% dependence on Russia to no need for Putin’s oil and gas.
It will take more time for larger countries, but no reasons they cannot.
Assertion is not details. Still waiting.
The US provides for a fair chunk of the defense of the European Union and we get a little irked when we spend our money to defend Europe from Soviet Russia while Europe buys things from Soviet Russia.
Thus we have a say in their affairs. The principle of ‘The King’s Coin’ applies here.
Europe can of course quit NATO and submit to Soviet rule. That’s their choice.
Don’t hold your breath expecting them to do this.
Yeah, if export of raw materials is 80% of your income, just ban it, that will show’em. The rus nazis are going full North Korean.
“They all going to be poooor “ - go get a job clown.
The bad thing is that it is all bluster and I don’t see even a mild retaliation on Russian part economically. The EU deserves severe punishment for its arrogance, but Putin is probably stupidly hoping that the business as usual is still possible.
You are delusional. Check out what makes the biggest difference between the economies of the 19th and 21th centuries.
If you think that you can mess with the source of raw materials because you are too big too fall, I’d like how big you are going to stay after running out of them, including fertilizers for food.
The problem with the EU politicians is that they think that the original source of energy is the socket in the wall and food is growing in the supermarket, and if they have Euro (which is by the way is collapsing as crazy on all of this) then they can have it all.
“but Putin is probably stupidly hoping that the business as usual is still possible”
Regardless, Russia now turns East and South when this war is over. The One World Government dreams of the Europeans and Americans are over. They will have to take their grandiose planss to ‘save the planet’ back to university and likely park them there.
“Putin using energy to hurt others is a case for energy independence from Soviet Russia.”
The outright US theft of $300 BILLION in Russian reserves held in the US along with US sanctions, which are not working (at least for the Russians) and causing us great harm, is also a case for Russia and other countries to seek economic independence from the west.
That is precisely what is happening while western economies are experiencing massive increases in inflation and debt and heading toward a cliff.
China, India, Indonesia, and many other countries are choosing economic sides now and it is not us!
Smart. Real smart!
Way to go Brandon.
Sanctions are fine. Russia should be allowed to access their billions in the U.S., it's their money. We have not declared war on Russia. We are just not happy with them, I get that.
Now countries in the 3rd World will have a difficult time trusting us. So we better get our financial house in order, stop printing all those dollars and running massive deficit with your federal budget.
“They went in two months from almost 100% dependence on Russia to no need for Putin’s oil and gas.
Oh, WOW! How has that worked out for them?
Estonia’s inflation rate.
https://tradingeconomics.com/estonia/inflation-cpi
18% and growing!
Now that’s one more smart move you got there Estonia a Baltic country.
Ukraine War Pushes Inflation Up, Growth Down in Baltic States
https://bit.ly/3KUyPRC
Yes. Make me more independent. I like it.
Let’s have even more sanctions so I can’t feed my family, heat my home or drive my car.
“Sanctions are fine. Russia should be allowed to access their billions in the U.S., it’s their money. We have not declared war on Russia. We are just not happy with them, I get that.
Now countries in the 3rd World will have a difficult time trusting us.”
We agree we should not steal Russia’s money. That makes us another crackpot state that, as you say, cannot be trusted. The implications of that will be enormous in the future. It already has and will only get worse.
As for sanctions. We probably disagree. Sanctions are not okay. They don’t work and, in fact, cause as much harm to us as the intended target — at least in the case of sanctions against a large country like Russia.
Inflation at almost 9% and growing (the highest in 40 years), negative GDP, and continued growth of our $30 TRILLION in debt is the price each and every American is paying for the incompetent leaders who are taking us down this stupid and insane path.
“The outright US theft of $300 BILLION in Russian reserves”
The actual number of seized assets is heading north of $600bn.
The number of assets that have been rendered inaccessible is estimated to be north of $1tn.
You cry that this is ‘outright theft’ and I’m sure the Russians are authorities on outright theft given that they stole Crimea from Ukraine, they’re trying to steal Donbass and Luhansk, they stole land from Finland, they stole land from Georgia, they stole land from Japan, and they want to steal all of Eastern Europe.
I have exactly ZERO sympathy for Russia here. They are outright thieves and now they cry when someone else steals from them as if only Imperial Soviet Russia is allowed to steal! LOL!!!
The Soviets can suck rocks.
“You cry that this is ‘outright theft’ and I’m sure the Russians are authorities on outright theft given that they stole Crimea from Ukraine, they’re trying to steal Donbass and Luhansk, they stole land from Finland, they stole land from Georgia, they stole land from Japan, and they want to steal all of Eastern Europe.”
Pleeease... Give me a break!
Crimea and Donbas were originally part of the USSR and were populated by ethnically speaking Russians. Donbas (east Ukraine) was and has been attacked by Ukraine since 2014 where over 13,000 of its citizens have died in brutal attacks. Crimea voted to become a part of Russia and east Ukraine/Donbas will likely do the same. The rest that you mentioned are the spoils of war just as we have done throughout history.
And exactly what is your source that Russia wants to seize all of Eastern Europe? You sound like the neocon, warmongers in Washington and with their over-the-top propaganda programs. There is absolutely no proof of that ludicrous claim. I guess you believe we were about to be attacked by WMD in Iraq or that the Afghans would annihilate us in an all-out attack. What a nutcase.
You should know about the spoils of war. As in where we stole lands from the native Americans that we now call the US. We even marched some off to reservations almost 1000 miles away from their ancestral homes. And how about the spoils of Puerto Rico, Guam, the Philippines, and later Hawaii. Sure. We took those fair and square — by force.
Should we talk about Texas? How about the SW US where we fought a battle and then literally stole that section of the country for a pittance from Mexico as the spoils of war?
Ever hear the term, Manifest Destiny? I’m sure you know all about that concept that “entitled” the US to lands/territory.
The above examples are about outright military force. Shall we discuss the covert efforts of our country where we invaded and attempted to change the leaders and governments of sovereign countries all around the globe?
And now, we have an out-and-out theft that would make Berny Madoff cringe, where we steal the financial assets of a foreign nation when they have done no more than we have done throughout history.
As someone else commented, that move really ensures trust in our financial system. We are no better than countries like Venezuela and other Latin American countries that have nationalized and seized foreign resources.
Your warped view of that direct financial theft in no way makes it right and it will cost us in the long run. We will continue to pay long after Russia has been successful in this special military operation.
Pound sand. The Soviets are thieves. I don’t care who steals from them. Frankly, I sincerely hope China soon invades and annexes Siberia since it used to be theirs...and that’s your argument for Russia stealing Ukraine.
“And exactly what is your source that Russia wants to seize all of Eastern Europe?”
Soviet Russia’s ultimatum to the US and NATO dated 10 December 2021. In particular Article 4 that demands NATO withdraw from the former Soviet slave states.
Oh, yes! I thought you were with the Biden administration or CNN. Now, I know it.
You are showing your ignorance.
Article 4 clearly states that *RUSSIA* and the parties will not place weapons in any other European state.
Maybe you don’t grasp the concept that Russia wants an agreement where they will not expand in Europe. How can that be Russian expansion?? I don’t get it. I don’t think you do either.
Article 4
The *RUSSIAN FEDERATION* and all the Parties that were member States of the
North Atlantic Treaty Organization as of 27 May 1997, respectively, shall not
deploy military forces and weaponry on the territory of any of the other States in
Europe in addition to the forces stationed on that territory as of 27 May 1997.
With the consent of all the Parties such deployments can take place in
exceptional cases to eliminate a threat to security of one or more Parties.
Russia’s 12/10/2022 letter restricts Russia in no way whatsoever. It restricts NATO.
But nice try on the propaganda spin....fail.
“Russia’s 12/10/2022 letter restricts Russia in no way whatsoever. It restricts NATO.”
You quoted Article 4 which was the proposed agreement between Russia and NATO.
I’m sorry you can’t understand simple English, but according to the proposed agreement Russia *AND* NATO both would be bound by the terms. Get it? Both. Not one.
Your feeble interpretation does nothing to change the language. The document in no way supports Russiss’s expansion. In fact, it does just the opposite!
Post the 12/10/21 letter you now quote (after first quoting Article 4).
Article 4
The *RUSSIAN FEDERATION* and all the Parties that were member States of the
North Atlantic Treaty Organization as of 27 May 1997, respectively, shall not
deploy military forces and weaponry on the territory of any of the other States in
Europe in addition to the forces stationed on that territory as of 27 May 1997.
With the consent of all the Parties such deployments can take place in
exceptional cases to eliminate a threat to security of one or more Parties.
Link please.
So apparently you can’t substantiate your version of the 10 December 2021 demands.
I don’t have that problem:
https://intellinews.com/russia-issues-a-eight-point-list-of-demands-229829/
https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL2203/S00019/russias-demands-have-changed.htm
Article 1: the parties should not strengthen their security at the expense of Russia’s security;
Article 2: the parties will use multilateral consultations and the NATO-Russia Council to address points of conflict;
Article 3: the parties reaffirm that they do not consider each other as adversaries and maintain a dialogue;
Article 4: the parties shall not deploy military forces and weaponry on the territory of any of the other states in Europe in addition to any forces that were deployed as of May 27, 1997;
Article 5: the parties shall not deploy land-based intermediate- and short-range missiles adjacent to the other parties;
Article 6: all member States of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization commit themselves to refrain from any further enlargement of NATO, including the accession of Ukraine as well as other States;
Article 7: the parties that are member States of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization shall not conduct any military activity on the territory of Ukraine as well as other States in the Eastern Europe, in the South Caucasus and in Central Asia; and
Article 8: the agreement shall not be interpreted as affecting the primary responsibility of the Security Council of the United Nations for maintaining international peace and security.
And I’ve found another draft from December 15, 2021:
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/dec/23/treaty-between-united-states-america-russian/
Draft
The United States of America and the Russian Federation, hereinafter referred to as the “Parties”,
guided by the principles contained in the Charter of the United Nations, the 1970 Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Cooperation among States in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations, the 1975 Helsinki Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, as well as the provisions of the 1982 Manila Declaration on the Peaceful Settlement of Disputes, the 1999 Charter for European Security, and the 1997 Founding Act on Mutual Relations, Cooperation and Security between the North Atlantic Treaty Organization and the Russian Federation,
recalling the inadmissibility of the threat or use of force in any manner inconsistent with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations both in their mutual and international relations in general,
supporting the role of the United Nations Security Council that has the primary responsibility for maintaining international peace and security,
recognizing the need for united efforts to effectively respond to modern security challenges and threats in a globalized and interdependent world,
considering the need for strict compliance with the principle of non-interference in the internal affairs, including refraining from supporting organizations, groups or individuals calling for an unconstitutional change of power, as well as from undertaking any actions aimed at changing the political or social system of one of the Contracting Parties,
bearing in mind the need to create additional effective and quick-to-launch cooperation mechanisms or improve the existing ones to settle emerging issues and disputes through a constructive dialogue on the basis of mutual respect for and recognition of each other’s security interests and concerns, as well as to elaborate adequate responses to security challenges and threats,
seeking to avoid any military confrontation and armed conflict between the Parties and realizing that direct military clash between them could result in the use of nuclear weapons that would have far-reaching consequences,
reaffirming that a nuclear war cannot be won and must never be fought, and recognizing the need to make every effort to prevent the risk of outbreak of such war among States that possess nuclear weapons,
reaffirming their commitments under the Agreement between the United States of America and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics on Measures to Reduce the Risk of Outbreak of Nuclear War of 30 September 1971, the Agreement between the Government of the United States of America and the Government of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics on the Prevention of Incidents On and Over the High Seas of 25 May 1972, the Agreement between the United States of America and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics on the Establishment of Nuclear Risk Reduction Centers of 15 September 1987, as well as the Agreement between the United States of America and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics on the Prevention of Dangerous Military Activities of 12 June 1989,
have agreed as follows:
Article 1
The Parties shall cooperate on the basis of principles of indivisible, equal and undiminished security and to these ends:
shall not undertake actions nor participate in or support activities that affect the security of the other Party;
shall not implement security measures adopted by each Party individually or in the framework of an international organization, military alliance or coalition that could undermine core security interests of the other Party.
Article 2
The Parties shall seek to ensure that all international organizations, military alliances and coalitions in which at least one of the Parties is taking part adhere to the principles contained in the Charter of the United Nations.
Article 3
The Parties shall not use the territories of other States with a view to preparing or carrying out an armed attack against the other Party or other actions affecting core security interests of the other Party.
Article 4
The United States of America shall undertake to prevent further eastward expansion of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization and deny accession to the Alliance to the States of the former Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
The United States of America shall not establish military bases in the territory of the States of the former Union of Soviet Socialist Republics that are not members of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, use their infrastructure for any military activities or develop bilateral military cooperation with them.
Article 5
The Parties shall refrain from deploying their armed forces and armaments, including in the framework of international organizations, military alliances or coalitions, in the areas where such deployment could be perceived by the other Party as a threat to its national security, with the exception of such deployment within the national territories of the Parties.
The Parties shall refrain from flying heavy bombers equipped for nuclear or non-nuclear armaments or deploying surface warships of any type, including in the framework of international organizations, military alliances or coalitions, in the areas outside national airspace and national territorial waters respectively, from where they can attack targets in the territory of the other Party.
The Parties shall maintain dialogue and cooperate to improve mechanisms to prevent dangerous military activities on and over the high seas, including agreeing on the maximum approach distance between warships and aircraft.
Article 6
The Parties shall undertake not to deploy ground-launched intermediate-range and shorter-range missiles outside their national territories, as well as in the areas of their national territories, from which such weapons can attack targets in the national territory of the other Party.
Article 7
The Parties shall refrain from deploying nuclear weapons outside their national territories and return such weapons already deployed outside their national territories at the time of the entry into force of the Treaty to their national territories. The Parties shall eliminate all existing infrastructure for deployment of nuclear weapons outside their national territories.
The Parties shall not train military and civilian personnel from non-nuclear countries to use nuclear weapons. The Parties shall not conduct exercises or training for general-purpose forces, that include scenarios involving the use of nuclear weapons.
Article 8
The Treaty shall enter into force from the date of receipt of the last written notification on the completion by the Parties of their domestic procedures necessary for its entry into force.
Done in two originals, each in English and Russian languages, both texts being equally authentic.
For the United States of America For the Russian Federation
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