Posted on 04/15/2022 2:52:57 PM PDT by Zhang Fei
The United States now believes that the Russian guided-missile cruiser Moskva, the flagship of President Vladimir Putin's Black Sea fleet, was hit by two Ukrainian missiles before sinking, according to a senior U.S. official.
The official told reporters on Friday that the vessel had been hit by Neptune anti-ship missiles.
Russia claimed that she sank when being towed in stormy seas after a fire triggered explosions in an ammunition store.
But the official's account backs Ukraine's Operational Command South which claimed that the Moskva began to sink after being hit by Neptune missiles.
Mykhailo Samus, director of a Lviv-based military think-tank; Andriy Klymenko, editor of Black Sea News; and Ukrainian newspaper Defence Express all warned that the Moskva could have been carrying two nuclear warheads designed to be fitted to its P-1000 'carrier killer' missiles.
If true, the loss of the warheads into the Black Sea could spark a 'Broken Arrow' incident - American military slang for potentially lethal accidents involving nuclear weapons.
'On board the Moskva could be nuclear warheads - two units,' Samus said, while Klymenko called on other Black Sea nations - Turkey, Romania, Georgia, and Bulgaria - to insist on an explanation. 'Where are these warheads? Where were they when the ammunition exploded,' he asked.
Meanwhile Ilya Ponomarev, a politician exiled from Russia for opposing Putin's 2014 annexation of Crimea, said just 58 of the 510-strong crew have since been accounted for - raising the prospect that 452 men went down with the ship in what would be a bitter loss for Vladimir Putin's already beleaguered army.
Russia claims all the Moskva's sailors were 'successfully evacuated' but video taken in Sevastopol overnight shows dozens of cars purportedly belonging to the sailors still parked in the port - suggesting their owners had not returned to collect them.
(Excerpt) Read more at dailymail.co.uk ...
Exactly I have been saying this on this thread a few times.
+100! That is why Russia went smaller and VLS.
Not if the Russians use stand off air launched cruise missiles and hypersonic ones at that. AA missiles are useless against hypersonic missiles as there is no intercept capability.
The US backed off of fighting in the region in Syria when there were chemical attacks that occurred in country in August of 2013. It is known that ISIS carried these attacks out to try to drag NATO in the situation. OBuggery deployed two carrier battle groups to go get involved. The reason we backed off is because the Russians have a whole bunch of Kalibr and Onyx Yakunt turbojet hypersonic anti-ship missiles which are multi-platform deployable. What we just witnessed happen to the Moskva would have happened to our carrier battle groups on a grand scale.
That is why I would not get too cocky about destroying a nearly 50 year old obsolescent surface combatant nearing the end of its service life. The Russians have improved on their hypersonic capability by adding two Scramjet propelled missiles called Zircon and Kinzhal which can fly even faster. They have used Kinzhal twice in this conflict with success and that is the reason I don’t see NATO getting involved in this mess because we have not learned our lesson and the same scenario why we backed off in Syria in 2013 can happen again.
Yes, I had a brain blip. I hope my Orthodox friends will forgive me.
I forgive you for not knowing there are currently no aircraft carriers in the Black Sea, including any from the US.
Which is why losing the Moskva ( a floating command post and arms depot) is a big psychological hit for Russia but not the end of the war as the article infers. It inspires the Ukes to think they are winning though, at the cost of many more lives while our arms merchants and Biden cheer them on,
You may have a point, since the Ukes have no navy and most of the Western world is being led to believe they are winning the war.
The Soviet Socialist Republics. They only went into incognito mode for awhile.
It depends on what the definition of "winning the war" means, doesn't it?
To much of the world, "winning the war" for Ukraine means the current government remains in power, and the Russian forces leave most of the areas they occupied with the war; essentially, simple survival.
I have heard many variations of what "winning the war" means for Russia.
What is your definition of "winning the war" for Ukraine, and for Russia?
The question should be, is there any news that you should believe? The answer is, "yes". That news needs to be evidence based.
- No anonymous sources.
- No just because someone at the Pentagon says so.
- No just because someone at the White House says so.
- No just because someone in government says so.
There needs to be proof, and even then the source needs to be scrutinized. It don't believe anything that comes out of the Joint Chief's mouths. Same goes for Adm. Kirby. They have lied so often and made such substantial lies they are not to be believed on anything. Any news source that quotes them as giving the truth without extensive research and evidence is not doing their job.
The same applies with all government. For instance, I do not believe government's inflation numbers. Well, I believe they are accurate, but I disagree with the method of calculation since they changed the method of calculation to hide inflation and obfuscate direct comparison to historic inflation figures. Any news source that compares today's inflation rate to 1981 and does explain how the two rates differ is not doing their jobs.
As for the Moskva sinking, I believe that it did, since all sides say so. How it was sunk is up to debate and I don't we will ever have a straight answer. Quite honestly, I don't care. I don't care about Ukraine. I don't care about Russia. There is no personal or national interest in either, other that me caring about our weapons and money is going in that direction when we don't have the money and it adds to inflation.
Winning for Ukraine would mean pledging not to seek NATO membership, not allowing WMD or nukes in Ukraine in any alternate security alliance, accepting the Crimean referendum from 2014, accept at a minimum if not full independence then autonomy for the Donbass and Luhansk on a par with whats been brokered by us for Kosovo and the Kurds, with security guarantees for the population against nationalist attacks, provided by Russia and nations it trusts ( not NATO members)
The nationalists have killed 14,000 Ukrainians since 2014 fir refusing to accept the Kiev govt installed by coup in 2014. And have publicly stated their Donbass rebellion solution to be extermination of over a million people.
Enough of giving these people lethal weapons to finish the job of purging its own citizens if the Russians are expelled,
In short…everything that was offered 50 days and thousands of dead and ruined lives ago.
But…Biden and the West dont want a diplomatic solution, only using Ukraine to bleed Russia.
It appears your definition of what is winning for Ukraine, and what is winning for Russia, is essentially the same.
I bet you after this war ends, Ukraine will develop nuclear ICBMs and have them aimed at St. Petersburg and Moscow.
“Somehow other than its huge symbolic loss and prob the radar and surveillance missions it was supporting…the Russian army will press on”
Your sympathy for the terror attacks of Putin’s Russia are noted. Have a pity party if you must.
It’s hilarious watching these liberaltarians continue to discredit themselves from conservatism. Rooting for our primary enemies Russia and China.
Russia only has 3 of these large cruisers like Moscow, well, now 2. Bismarck, Graf Spee etc.
It’s a huge victory for Ukraine and might portend that Crimea could come into play if we get more anti ship missiles there. UK has already sent Harpoons which should be operable soon.
The humiliations will continue for the Russian military.
Ukraine wouldn’t really need ICBMS. But a few intermediate range ballistic missiles are highly possible.
And I wouldn’t blame them in the least.
L
(Amateur Simulation.)
How Well Defended Was The Russian Slava Class Cruiser “Moskva”? | DCS
https://youtu.be/Bxwh6MGLJNc
LOL. If Hasbro (MB’s current owner) created a special edition of Battleship, with Zelensky and Putin on the box, I suspect they’d get pretty good sales, just for the novelty value. Heck, if they promised to donate 5% of the revenues (of a product which is probably really high margin) to Ukraine, I could see land office business, along with a halo that should last for years, resulting in Hasbro products ending up as stocking stuffers even in instances where they had completely lost mindshare among Christmas shoppers.
The Russian navy has been taking it in the chops from the Ukrainians who will now be bolder and more audacious than before.
You’re right that the Russians will now have to come to terms with the situation and have to forgo using the navy for close in support and instead stand back to protect their ships and fire what they can from a safer distance.
The net of which is a reduction in effective force for the Russians.
Odd thing is a buddy of mine says the Russians are suddenly talking about recommissioning an old Sverdlov class cruiser that’s being stored somewhere. I imagine it’s got to be at Murmansk or maybe Novaya Zemlya. Not sure how they propose to get it to the Black Sea with the Turks closing the strait. In any case it’s interesting if only from a speculative point of view.
“I bet you after this war ends, Ukraine will develop nuclear ICBMs and have them aimed at St. Petersburg and Moscow.”
I suspect there won’t be much left of Russian military power after this war is over. Ukraine will not need nukes and Russia won’t be able to afford maintaining too many.
Seriously, I’m starting to think that Russia has done too much harm to itself with this war because they’re using up irreplaceable Soviet-era equipment and they’re destroying the Ukrainian factories that would be needed to replace all that gear.
It’s all downhill from here for Moscow.
Meantime Ukraine grows stronger by the day as new weapons are delivered.
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