Posted on 02/20/2021 10:01:30 AM PST by Moseley
Rd later.
What is your point and how did I prove it?
What I posted is from their own documents, not my opinion.
Nimrata went beyond mere having an opinion and worked to erase American history.
What history did she erase by changing the flag? What did we know about history before she changed the flag that we don't know now?
Imagine me moving to India and ripping out what I decided were non-progressive parts/politiclaly incorrect parts of their history. Would Indians make excuses for me too?
If they elected you, no excuses are needed. If they didn't, then I think you'd know better than to even try it.
My point as I said many times is that you are presenting the Civil War as if it were about one issue when actually there are many facets.
More important than slavery to many from the South who chose to secede was that the compact under which they had joined was being breached and they were being denied the sovereignty they had been promised over their own states.
The article you provided was excellent and gave a thorough analysis of that aspect of the war. Many historians’ analysis is that slavery was secondary to Lincoln as well. They see Lincoln as having used slavery to fuel recruitment and create a cause that was nobler than the economic reality. The North needed the South to survive.
I do not blame you because the left has distorted history to support their agenda to such an extent that fiction has replaced historical rigor. Your inability to see anything in the referenced article other than slavery proves my point that you are oversimplifying and reacting emotionally rather than logically.
Those facets all revolved around one thing, the perceived right of the democrats to own slaves.
More important than slavery to many from the South who chose to secede was that the compact under which they had joined was being breached and they were being denied the sovereignty they had been promised over their own states.
That "sovereignty" included their rights to own slaves. They said as much in their reasons for secession.
The article you provided was excellent and gave a thorough analysis of that aspect of the war. Many historians’ analysis is that slavery was secondary to Lincoln as well.
I have read them, and I'm not impressed. Here are the facts.
The abolitionists were at it long before Lincoln became President.
The Republican party was formed to abolish slavery.
Slavery was abolished after President Lincoln got his military history.
Do you oppose slavery? I'm sure the answer is yes. If you had spoken out against slavery in the democrat run confederacy, you would have been attacked or even lynched.
They see Lincoln as having used slavery to fuel recruitment and create a cause that was nobler than the economic reality. The North needed the South to survive.
Even if that is true, it would still prove the Union's goal was to abolish slavery.
I do not blame you because the left has distorted history to support their agenda to such an extent that fiction has replaced historical rigor.
The left's goal is to tag us, whether that be the Republicans or the right, with their history. They are perfectly OK with confederacy apologists claiming the confederacy's history as our history. They know it was about slavery, and are perfectly willing to be absolved of it's history. If it's at our expense, so much the better.
The Confederacy, of course, saw itself beating back the forces of tyranny much as Washington and Jefferson had asserted the sovereignty of the individual states from that of an “undemocratic” distant power.
The Union, meanwhile, sought to preserve the republic forged by independence and fulfill the Declaration’s assertion of “inalienable” human rights bestowed by our “Creator,” for whom “all men are created equal.”
The months leading to the signing of the Emancipation Proclamation in January 1863 formed a crucial chapter in this clash.
President Abraham Lincoln had spent the first two years of the war claiming that the goal of the fight was to restore the Union and nothing more. Indeed, as late as August of 1862, he asserted that “[i]f I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves, I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that. What I do about Slavery and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save this Union, and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union.”
https://www.whatitmeanstobeamerican.org/ideas/what-lincoln-was-thinking-when-he-freed-the-slaves/
I think what bothers me most about your argument is that you treat history as malleable for political purposes just as the left does.
We on the right, conservatives, MAGA, small government individualists do not adopt our viewpoints because they protect us from accusations by the leftists, after all nothing could do that. We attempt to look for the truth by examining original documents from the past and letting those documents inform our understanding. We compare & contrast the words of the people who lived at the time to assemble a world view based on their observations & avowed beliefs.
I abhor slavery in any of it’s forms. Slavery in America was no worse than slavery has been throughout history, continuing to today. When slavery was legal in America many did not accept that such an institution should exist in this new Nation based on Liberty, Justice & Freedom for all. Whether we had the Civil war or not slavery would have been eradicated with the pressure of public opinion and the growth of machines which freed the farmers to move away from slavery.
What is even more shameful is what the carpetbaggers, Klan & democrats did to the freed Negros. When Negros were first freed they cherished their freedoms, had a strong family culture and excelled. Then the democrats put them on welfare plantations and burdened them with the bigotry of low expectation. That was more damaging than actual slavery because that dependency was disguised, killed ambition, & distorted the rules of the game. Maladaptive behaviors caused by the welfare system trapped many for generations with no path to escape. The system discouraged fathers in the family home while prioritizing early and multiple births which rewarded girls with apartments & dollars for children. In pursuing this windfall the girls ruined their own lives & the lives of the next generation.
Demonrats are truly evil and you can see the mark of their callous destruction in the inner cities, in fact in all demonrat controlled cities & states. People that try to scapegoat the South ignore the fact that families were torn apart by the war with brothers drawn to fight on different sides, there was no consensus in families let alone in the entire South. The true story of the Civil War is America’s story and America needs to understand. Trying to sterilize the past means we are doomed to repeat it.
Frederick Douglas, who was there (unlike these historians), had met Lincoln, and understood the times, saw this. He could explain it better than I ever could, so here it is.
"I have said that President Lincoln was a white man, and shared the prejudices common to his countrymen towards the colored race. Looking back to his times and to the condition of his country, we are compelled to admit that this unfriendly feeling on his part may be safely set down as one element of his wonderful success in organizing the loyal American people for the tremendous conflict before them, and bringing them safely through that conflict. His great mission was to accomplish two things: first, to save his country from dismemberment and ruin; and, second, to free his country from the great crime of slavery. To do one or the other, or both, he must have the earnest sympathy and the powerful cooperation of his loyal fellow-countrymen. Without this primary and essential condition to success his efforts must have been vain and utterly fruitless. Had he put the abolition of slavery before the salvation of the Union, he would have inevitably driven from him a powerful class of the American people and rendered resistance to rebellion impossible. Viewed from the genuine abolition ground, Mr. Lincoln seemed tardy, cold, dull, and indifferent; but measuring him by the sentiment of his country, a sentiment he was bound as a statesman to consult, he was swift, zealous, radical, and determined."
Oration in Memory of Abraham Lincoln Frederick Douglass | April 14, 1876
How are they different from the democrats from 170 years ago?
People that try to scapegoat the South ignore the fact that families were torn apart by the war with brothers drawn to fight on different sides, there was no consensus in families let alone in the entire South.
I don't scapegoat the South, any more that I scapegoat modern Japan for the crimes of it's past regimes. Just the opposite, the South of today has nothing to do with the democrats who split the country. Just the opposite, they would have opposed slavery.
The only thing that ties the modern South to the confederates is choice, and it isn't my choice.
Your quote seems less a rebuttal than an amplification of my words. In fact if you would extend the same courtesy to the South as you have expressed by saying all in the North were not the good guys we would be closer to agreement.
In looking around I found this forum where folks other than you and I have been taking sides on these issues. Having read the comments I see we will neither of us convince each other and both of us have clear thinking and persuasive company.
https://civilwartalk.com/threads/less-than-5-of-southerners-owned-slaves.14868/
While we are exploring this issue you might enjoy this link as well
https://www.debate.org/opinions/were-the-confederates-the-good-guys-in-the-civil-war
I have already said there were abolitionists in the South. The democrats did to them what what would do to us now if they could get away with it.
And it goes without saying that no Southerner today would support slavery.
I may look into it as time permits, but why do I need to read this when I have Frederick Douglas, who was a slave under the democrats, telling me exactly what happened?
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