Posted on 02/09/2021 3:30:05 AM PST by marktwain
Before I graduated from high school, I overheard the older brother of a close friend talking about shooting a bear. The bear had been discovered in a den, during the Wisconsin deer season. As I recall, in 1968, such a harvest would have been legal.
The older brother was a Vietnam veteran. He approached the den with another vet. The brother suggested the other vet poke into the den to see if the bear were still there.
The other veteran said no, he would not do it. The brother said, well, in Vietnam, you went into holes to get Charlie.
Whereupon, the other veteran said: yes, but I had a different rifle then. (speaking of the M16).
He considered the M16 a superior gun for close-range bear defense than the common 30-30, whether Winchester 94 or Marlin 336.
At the time, I thought it strange someone would prefer a .223 semi-automatic rifle to a 30-30 or larger caliber rifle.
50 years and considerable time investigating actual defensive shootings of bears later, my opinion has become less certain.
Of the defensive bear shootings I have found, four of them were with rifles reasonably characterized as semi-automatic civilian versions of popular military rifles.
All four defensive shootings were successful. Modern sporting rifles most commonly are AR15 or AK47 style semi-automatic rifles. They are the most popular rifles in today’s America. It is certain more bears will be shot with them in the future. Here are the four incidents:
(Excerpt) Read more at ammoland.com ...
"As I recall" leaves a bit of room for error in memory from 50 years ago...
My father is 95. At 19 he was packing an M1 pursuing fascists across Belgium, Germany and CZ. He served in Patches 7th and Patton’s 3rd Armies.
He still likes rifles. The last deer he shot, was a 400 yard kill. He did that with his 30-06. (same as M1) He has a caribou mounted with antlers in velvet on his wall in the den.
So, as far as arguing over .223 ammo vs .308 ammo, I think he has long understood that the 06 was superior to both of them.
Note, he at one point was an armorer and worked on Quad 50’s and Borors. Both Big Bore stuff. Think he still has a couple of .50 BMG bullets with link connecting them.
"As I recall" leaves a bit of room for error in memory from 50 years ago...
There are all sorts of "internet commandos" on YouTube telling us that the "M-14 is impossible to handle in full-auto" while firing the thing from the offhand (!). No offense to those bozos, but firing full auto with anything in combat must be done from the prone and preferably with a bipod. With a small amount of practice, the '14 could fire three round bursts quite surgically.
As for the weight and length of the M-14, I had this discussion with a high school buddy who served the 82nd Airborne over there - he said that the "M-14 was too heavy and its ammo too heavy for Vietnam - the M-16 was the right weight and we could carry more ammo".
I told him that "I wish you'd told me - I would have sent a big, strong Marine to hold the rifle up for you".
He's been pretty quiet since then.
My favorite up close gun is my 30-30. Cheap to reload, shoots cast lead bullets very well. Out to 200 yards it will kill any wildlife we have locally.
As far as pistols, I look at it the same way. I prefer 38 special/357mag pistol (not short barrel). But I have a Remington XP100 .221 fireball that I bought in 1976. It has 3X long eye relief Burris scope on it. Tack driver. But very heavy. I reload both. Cast lead bullets also work very well in some 38Special/357mag pistols. But that depends upon which pistol you are talking about.
Yes. I agree.
“ Tools of the trade. Good to have a selection.”
************
Yeh, actually the first M-16 I saw was in 1965 up in central highlands. Some Air Force crew chiefs and such were packing them. At that time they were being manufactured by Armalite.
We have a very large — VERY large — bear on my property that was picked up on my neighbor’s hunting cam. It used to be we would let the dogs out unattended at night to do their business back in the woods before putting them in for the night, but now, they get an armed escort. 5.56 might be a little small for a bear, but at least you can get a lot of rounds off in a hurry during the retreat.
Then I saw the damn M16s jamming, with my fellow Marines being caught unarmed in the firefights struggling to free doublefeeds from the chambers. A lot of our young men died by their crippled rifles. Some Marines drilled holes in the rear of the M16 handguard to store a fully assembled cleaning rod so they could knock the jams loose without disassembling the rifle.
When I was hit is May '67, there were several competitors to take my M14 for themselves.
Oh, I remember everything very well.
It isn’t the rifle its the round.
Spitzer rounds are designed to tumble increasing the size of the wound channel. Enter nose exit base after a 180 tumble.
BT are an extension that increases the number of tumbles a round makes in a target medium.
However both follow a straight path through consistent target mediums.
The 223 with cannelure like the spitzer is designed to tumble but it usually breaks at the cannelure causing the pieces to go in divergent paths - at its higher velocity more energy is delivered to the target as well.
There is a very good maxim-
The M1 is a wounding rifle.
The M14 is a killing rifle.
The M16 is a mangling rifle.
In 69 it was the only WOODSTOCK I got to see lol. Truly a wonderful weapon, I had the stock blown off about 6 months in damaged the barrel so I was issued the trusty M16. The M14 I was familiar with had a toggle on the back plate I was told you could flip it out to make it more controllable in burst fire.
My guess is that, under stress, the probability of missing is high for many shooters. Being able to fire many times quickly increases the probability of getting a few hits in vital places.
That's one thing that's true, 100% of the time - every gun owner has an opinion! Some are based on solid facts, others on stories (or opinions ;^) they heard 'way back when'.
If we could all agree on even one simple thing (LIKE NOT VOTING FOR GUN-BANNING D@MOCRATS) it would be a freaking miracle...
We have a Winchester 71 .348 rifle. Last time I bought bullets for it, I got some of the Hornady FTX bullets for it. (they recently discontinued that one) Also bought new bag of brass. It was then very hard to find ammo for. It is a Bear Gun.
The bullet itself is very important in effectiveness of the gun.
That is why I like the Hornady 30 Cal 150gr InterLock bullet. For a 150 grain bullet, it has devastating expansion and retention of fragments. I was able to buy a couple of boxes of them this week. Price was around $.30 per bullet.
The only weapon that worked better in full auto was the BAR and they wouldn't let us have those.
in the lat 1970’s Del Ziesloft a local bloomsburge PA, businessman killed a 800 lb black bear during hunting season with a rifle. I don’t know the caliber. When asked about the event and how many bullets it took to take down that size of a bear. he said “all of them”
LOL
I thought the quote from the article "As I recall" made it clear I was refering to the memory of the author about an overheard conversation 50 years ago.
It was not meant to refer to your memory!
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