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To: Zhang Fei
I doubt your "fame" motive.

Wars are fought for status, sometimes, but mostly for survival and loot.

Loot may include land and tribute.

Successful leaders want more land and tribute to be able to do more, which can include more land and tribute which contibutes to more safety (survival).

Leaders may wish to be remembered, most probably do.. but it is generally a secondary or tertiary desire.

First, they want to survive.

Second, they want power, status, wealth, and everything that goes with it.

Successful war aids both of the first two desires.

38 posted on 09/07/2020 6:51:40 PM PDT by marktwain (President Trump and his supporters are the Resistance. His opponents are the Reactionaries.)
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To: marktwain

[Wars are fought for status, sometimes, but mostly for survival and loot. ]


Most national leaders have enough loot. If you’re a national leader, wars make personal survival more difficult - they’re expensive and involve large impositions on your tax base as well as your courtiers. Then there’s the issue of opportunities* for internal mutiny as well as coups, combined with the possibility of defeat by a foreign enemy.

You’re thinking of war as some extreme resort. For a national leader, war is just a tool for achieving his aims, much as a mechanic uses a wrench to loosen a nut. Note that conquerors don’t want war. What they want are the fruits of war. Alexander was perfectly happy to accept surrenders - he spared the cities that surrendered without a fight. After encountering a reverse Thermopylae at the Persian Gate, he exterminated the male population of the Persian capital and sold the women and children into slavery. He was not happy at having to lose a good chunk of his men at that godforsaken pass.

https://www.livius.org/sources/content/diodorus/alexander-sacks-persepolis/

Would he have preferred a surrender? He certainly rewarded those who opened their cities to his conquering troops.

* For the past several hundred years, soldiers in the West has been fairly docile. Not completely docile, given Franco’s role in the Spanish Civil War. Outside of the West, soldiers are anything but docile. Chinese troops in particular have several thousand year record of mutinous activity up to and including the extermination of their ruler and his clan. In the past century alone, Chinese troop mutinies have resulted in dynastic collapse as well as major changes in government policy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuchang_Uprising#New_Army_mutiny
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhang_Xueliang#Xi’an_incident

In antiquity, the human and financial cost of a military campaign against a proto-Korean empire led to a coup against a Chinese emperor by a close confidant, who killed both him and all of his direct line:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Yang_of_Sui#Late_reign

In the early 70’s, a senior Chinese general attempted a coup against Mao.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lin_Biao#%22Lin_Biao_incident%22_and_death

In the late 70’s, Deng Xiaoping mounted a successful coup against Mao’s handpicked successor:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hua_Guofeng#Ousting_and_death

Less than a decade ago, the Chinese official Bo Xilai was said to have been preparing for a coup against Xi Jinping.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bo_Xilai#Downfall

Bottom line is that Chinese leaders have to worry about fending off their rivals on a day-to-day basis. Wars abroad distract them from that task. Xi Jinping isn’t doing anything of these things to survive, any more than an Olympic athlete tries out for gold medals to survive. He’s doing it to achieve personal glory for posterity, like so many leaders, Chinese and otherwise, before him.


68 posted on 09/07/2020 10:27:15 PM PDT by Zhang Fei (My dad had a Delta 88. That was a car. It was like driving your living room.)
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