Posted on 09/15/2019 8:10:21 AM PDT by NorseViking
AND, West-facing Lemberg was not included in that Ukrainian state.
Examine yourself! I never commented on Ukrainian nukes. I never commented on Ukrainian independence. I commented on why, historically, Ukrainians hold a lot of animus towards Russia, particularly Soviet Russia. When you decide next time that you want to exercise your penchant for projection, try not to impute arguments to others that they never made. And if I read your last sentence correctly, you want Russia and Ukraine to be merged except for true independence in ‘something else’.
For now...
Of course, borders change, especially when a nation is attacked by another.
In this case, thousands of people are dead with the Russia invasion with their little green killers.
Ukraine kept to an agreement giving up nuclear arms for security guarantees.
Now they’ve suffered thousands of dead and have no security.
Thankfully, at least President Trump has provided lethal aid in its self-defense.
That’s for sure. To make things clear if you would try to identify a ‘historical Ukraine’ and not the artifical composition Communists assembled as Ukrainian SSR you’d find out it doesn’t include Kiev as well.
Sorry, I supposed you were part of a broader argument and combined all the issues brought into one. No offense, please, if it wasn’t the case.
No offense taken.
Written by the Polish American neo-liberal 'historian' Anne Applebaum, I'm sure there's no bias there.
Why Russians should be held responsible for decisions made during the Soviet era, but not Ukrainians who were also part of the USSR remains a mystery.
-btw Stalin was a Georgian.
We are now treading on thin ice. How can you even think that near assured proliferation of near 4000 nukes and advanced strategic delivery systems worth such a thing as an independence of some far away corrupt country?
Why Ukrainian independence is an issue that important for you that you want to risk your own country for it?
You can go play with your straw men as you like. You didn’t address what I think based on what I wrote which is factual.
Facts.
What strawman exactly? And if you are keep clinging to unratified guarantees there were guarantees to Russia that NATO won’t move further than East Germany.
All very reasonable points. Also Russia assumed all the debt USSR accumulated to support all the republics and paid it off to the last penny.
I’m not well enough informed about where the border should be between EUkraine and Little Russia. I imagine the population of Kiev has changed over the years since the creation of an independent state, though I agree historical Kiev would have been Russian.
The point is, the current Ukrainian State is too large and has the wrong borders.
I believe if we are to look from a very pro-Ukrainian but still somehow objective perspective the proto-Ukraine would be Zaporozhskaya Secha - a semi-authonomous Cossak statelet existing on a very small territory around lower Dniepr River. It did exist in some form between late 15th and late 17th century as a buffer zone between Poland, Ottomans and Russia but mostly Russian-controlled. It disappeared around 1770s.
Between 15th and 18th centuries, sorry.
"Western leaders never pledged not to enlarge NATO, a point that several analysts have demonstrated. Mark Kramer explored the question in detail in a 2009 article in The Washington Quarterly. He drew on declassified American, German and Soviet records to make his case and noted that, in discussions on German reunification in the two-plus-four format (the two Germanys plus the United States, Soviet Union, Britain and France), the Soviets never raised the question of NATO enlargement other than how it might apply in the former German Democratic Republic" (GDR).
" Gorbachev replied: “The topic of ‘NATO expansion’ was not discussed at all, and it wasn’t brought up in those years."
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2014/11/06/did-nato-promise-not-to-enlarge-gorbachev-says-no/
All your speaking for me is a strawman. Ukraine made a deal to surrender nukes.
They kept their end of the deal.
Read it, and give me the benefit of your analysis as to whether she’s biased or not. Often we rely too much on other people to do our critical thinking in their reviews or blogs. Typically because we don’t have the time or take the time.
No, I don’t need to read Applebaum’s dopey book to know she’s biased.
She on the editorial board at WAPO, is married to an EU bureaucrat, and went to Sidwell Friends school ffs.
The fact you didn’t know her pedigree beforehand speaks volumes.
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