Posted on 08/27/2019 3:41:10 AM PDT by rarestia
>>>Punching and kicking your car isn’t going to threaten your life<<<
You may have a point. Doing that could endanger the Life of the Moron doing the Punching and Kicking.
Unless you are The Amazing Kreskin and can read Minds, you have to make an reasonable assumption that someone attacking your Car like that is doing so as a means to get to you.
You know, like someone trying to break down the Front Door of your House. They step through the Doorway and you go all Shotgun Joe Biden on them, you don’t stop and ask them why they did it.
I never bought that story. A bad cop being protected by his brothers in blue.
Bzzzt, thank you for playing, you’re now 0 for 2. Like to make a few more assumptions for a complete strike out?
I agree, 50%. The punks on bikes deserve to get the book thrown at them. But if they weren’t through his windows, or off their bikes preparing to break into his car, he had (IMHO) no reasonable fear for his life. For his paint job? Sure. We can argue all day over whether the bikers were justified in striking his car. If you’ve never had someone nearly kill you merely because they weren’t paying attention - or worse, saw you and decided they could force you out of their way - then you don’t get it. Coming at me, in my car, on my bike, on foot - anyway - coming at me intentionally in a vehicle is attempted vehicular homicide. Just because the punks were being punks doesn’t justify trying to kill them.
I occassionally yave to break a car window and yank a person out or get a view inside.
And some fellas at work are always telling me how to shoot in, around, over, from, and into cars.
Sometimes I pay attention.
LOL !!!
Stay Safe and Take Care
The bikers did not just follow the guy in the SUV. A large number of them followed him as he tried to get away, then they blocked his retreat, and then they attacked his vehicle in a group, placing him in fear for his life.
Stop making excuses for these thugs. And, yes I have ridden myself, and I know how inconsiderate drivers can be a huge danger.
In addition to being a rider I'm also a parent and understand protecting my family is job #1. I'm also an avid 2nd Amendment supporter, firearms enthusiast, concealed carry permit holder & practitioner. I have coverage from US Law Shield (warning, blatant commercial follows) and I'd recommend everyone who owns a firearm, if you carry, if you only have it at home, whatever - attend one of their seminars and consider signing up. One of the things they are very good at is helping you become very familiar, very clear on when you can and cannot legally use deadly force, and where the gray areas are.
I would put this whole situation in one of those gray areas. Yes, putting on my biker's helmet I can see how a car blowing through their group (because that's probably how they saw it) would anger them. I've been on group rides multiple times, some as big as 100+ bikes. (*) Yes, there is very definitely a pack mentality. I guarantee you in any group over about 8 - 10 bikes there's going to be at least one guy who gets mad at the car driver that cuts through their group. Right or wrong, that's just how it is. The fact that the riders were being jerks, breaking traffic laws is inconsequential. That's no excuse for driving at them in your vehicle. If you saw teenagers spray painting a wall, you wouldn't drive up on the sidewalk and try to scatter them.
Now, putting on my safety glasses and hearing pro and slipping into 2nd Amendment defender mode, I have a couple of concerns. One is, we have to be extremely careful in these gray areas not to give the "anti-gun" crowd any ammunition. When we use deadly force there should be no question it is justified, else we give them an opportunity to set a little precedent, move a little of that gray area towards their side. Here, and as US Law Shield's experts will tell you, that means reasonable fear for your life. Is it reasonable to fear for your life when surrounded by 20 bikers pounding on your car? Maybe. Then again, it is nearly impossible to punch through a window (in spite of what Hollywood would have us believe). If anyone wants to try it, I'd recommend you don't use the hand you write with, brush your teeth with, etc. 'cause you're probably going to hurt yourself and fail. Inside a vehicle you are reasonably safe and secure from simple punches and kicks. Seems to me rolling down your window or opening your door and firing is an escalation. Consider, if you were home and someone, even a dozen someones, was/were pounding on your door threatening a home invasion, what would you do? You can't "blast through the door" or "step outside and let off two blasts" - that's Joe Biden level advice and patently illegal. In CO we have no duty to retreat, but we cannot resort to deadly force to protect property. People pounding on your house door or your car window - not good enough. As US Law Shield's people will tell you, they have to be in your house, advancing on you/threatening you. If they're stealing your TV, you can't shoot them. If they're carrying your TV towards the door, and you're between them and the door, well...
Yes it's stupid that we have to jump through these legal hoops to ensure we don't go to jail, but that's where we are. In this case, my 2nd Amendment fear is that the local prosecutor may be "anti-gun" and decide to use this case to set an example, set a little precedent. Suppose he approaches the teenager that got shot, offers him a deal. Classic carrot/stick. We'll overlook or drastically reduce the the traffic violations, the vandalism, property damage, wrongful/false imprisonment...he'll rattle off a laundry list of potential charges. In exchange kid, you testify that you were just riding with your buddies, yes you were all breaking a few traffic laws, and yes they were damaging his car - but you were just sitting there on your bike waiting for the group to ride on when he rolled down his window and shot you for no reason. Now the driver/shooter is going to claim self defense, but how can he prove the kid was threatening his life? If there's no traffic cam footage, no dash cam footage from the car behind him, it's just driver's word vs biker's word, and the biker has the bullet wound to prove it. The prosecutor is going to say the driver is dangerous, he attempted vehicular homicide on the bikers, then negligently discharged his firearm at them, wounding one.
That's my fear of this "gray area" - it is ready made to hand an "anti-gun" prosecutor a win, and put firearms enthusiasts back just that much more, give us yet another reason to pause, make sure there's no question... We're already at the point, literally, where we cannot use common sense, we have to consult with legal experts and take out insurance just so we can reasonably defend ourselves and not be in fear of going to jail, losing our home in a lawsuit, etc. I really like US Law Shield, but I'm extremely sad that they are a necessity.
Deadly force is increasingly more often decided as being justified against perceived *attempts* to attack occupants of vehicles, thanks to increasingly frequent and tricky carjackings and random, violent crimes committed on the roads by drug addicts (so-called road rage).
US Law Shield is alright for people who can come up with a big bond when needed. USCCA might be better for others.
Reasonable fear for your life. Not a clue as to what the actual intentions of the riders may be, moot in court. It is only dependent upon what a reasonable person in the car might be led to believe was at stake.
If a group of 15-20 persons surround your vehicle with motor cycles ( an effective barrier to any reasonable man) which effectively eliminates your ability to flee, any action including running some of them over or shooting at persons could easily be construed to be a reasonable response to that perceived threat.
Laying on the horn and driving forward steadily would be my first choice of action, my 2.5 ton vehicle is much more effective a weapon that my pistol bullet. Accelerator position becomes dependent on ow they react.
Oh, and a video camera recording sight and sound would be a nice piece of evidence when it is all over.
Does anyone think none of these bikers was not carrying some type of legal or illegal weapon. Remember, carrying a weapon otherwise legally ends when one commits a crime.... Blocking and threatening the motorist is a crime, any and all the bikers became aggressors the moment they impeded his freedom to move/escape.
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