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To: DiogenesLamp; rockrr; BroJoeK
I think you might want to retreat from this thought, because if you go down this road and try to find some plan that would allow the south to leave by mutual consent, you will see the reality of it. Once seen, it cannot be unseen. You will start to notice that everything converges on this point of money.

Then make the money work for you. Modern day protesters in the US and South Africa recognized that pictures of police attacking peaceful protesters would eventually be bad for business.

Obviously, secessionists didn't have the information and experience that 20th century organizers did, but surely they could have forseen that working out a solution that would be acceptable to both sides was the only way to keep the peace. But they didn't want peace. They wanted to lash out with force. So they chose to act unilaterally and ultimately militarily.

If Davis had said that he wouldn't fire the first shot , or better still, if he and his cronies had stayed in Congress to work out a solution acceptable to both sides, there wouldn't have been a war -- or at least not a war started by the secessionists -- but they didn't because they wanted war (or at least were willing to risk war) to get what they wanted.

There you go with the ad hominem stuff again.

You reduce history and the people in it into simplistic cliches: it's all about the money, and if it isn't it's about power and ego. If that's the case, what makes you any different? What makes you any more trustworthy and upright than anyone else? If you spread cynicism beyond its natural limits, don't be surprised if cynicism comes back to get at you.

My primary concern at that time was the possibility of being incinerated by Soviet Nuclear ICBMs (for Obvious reasons growing up next to a US Military base)

Missile bases are in places where not many people live, right? The military and the government don't want large civilian populations to be destroyed by enemies attacking our nuclear weapons. So wherever you lived wasn't likely to be a major commercial or financial or industrial or educational or cultural or media or political center.

But that's okay. Different parts of the country play different roles and develop attitudes based on the roles they play. If by some chance your hometown became an economic and cultural center, you'd either have all the "New York City" faults that you attack, or you'd still be complaining about the horrible sophisticates in Minot or Cheyenne or Great Falls and how they look down on the rest of the country.

My point is: if you have a rich and successful country, you will have some places richer than others and they'll have attitudes that are different from those that prevail in other parts of the country. Just like you'll have some people who are much richer than other people. But that's okay. It's something the country can life with and something we can't avoid if we have an economy that is rich enough and complicated enough.

123 posted on 05/22/2018 2:05:58 PM PDT by x
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To: x
Obviously, secessionists didn't have the information and experience that 20th century organizers did, but surely they could have forseen that working out a solution that would be acceptable to both sides was the only way to keep the peace.

One side wanted to continue dining on their production, and that same side didn't want them setting up competition.

Where is the wiggle room here?

They wanted to lash out with force. So they chose to act unilaterally and ultimately militarily.

That's propaganda. They tried negotiating for over three months to get Anderson to leave Sumter, so trigger happy they weren't. Even then, had Lincoln not sent the warships, Sumter would have been resolved peacefully.

Of course Lincoln would have then insisted on starting it in Pensacola. His orders to Porter were going to start a war there if one didn't happen in Charleston.

If Davis had said that he wouldn't fire the first shot , or better still, if he and his cronies had stayed in Congress to work out a solution acceptable to both sides, there wouldn't have been a war

What solution could have been acceptable to both sides? You have the paying side, and the receiving side, and the payee doesn't want to continue paying, and the receiving side doesn't want to lose any money, and D@mn sure didn't want competing businesses set up in the South, so how are you gonna compromise?

It would have always come down to them wanting to leave, and the North wanting to stop them.

but they didn't because they wanted war (or at least were willing to risk war) to get what they wanted.

Independence? To not be controlled by the Wolf Fest at Washington DC? I want that now, and I think a whole lot of other people would like to stop sending tribute to our ruling class.

You reduce history and the people in it into simplistic cliches: it's all about the money, and if it isn't it's about power and ego. If that's the case, what makes you any different? What makes you any more trustworthy and upright than anyone else?

I don't gain anything. My bread is not buttered from either side being in the right, the blood of my ancestors does not cry out in distress because I take a specific position, so I have no ulterior motive to favor anybody. I can call it as I see it.

I also see myself as a philosopher. There are larger truths out there if we would but see them.

My point is: if you have a rich and successful country, you will have some places richer than others and they'll have attitudes that are different from those that prevail in other parts of the country.

Well see, i've been studying a lot of things for quite awhile, and I have noticed an odd correlation between money and liberalism. I've also learned that scads of other people have noticed this same correlation, and so it gives me encouragement that this is a real effect. I think the effect is even more pronounced when the beneficiaries of wealth have done very little to earn it, or even nothing at all. They develop "guilt" after a fashion, and so feel the need to speak out for the poor and oppressed, usually in some manner calling for government to do more for the poor and oppressed rather than themselves.

They don't lose all sense of proportion you see. :)

But I'm not against people being rich. I'm against rich people using their power and influence to tamper with the Government to keep themselves enriched or to provide benefits to their friends.

I'm against the collusion between the rich and the "deep state", "establishment", "Uniparty" that we have running Washington DC now.

And which I think was a permanent consequence of Lincoln's empowerment and war.

124 posted on 05/22/2018 3:47:07 PM PDT by DiogenesLamp ("of parents owing allegiance to no other sovereignty.")
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