Posted on 12/11/2017 1:02:58 PM PST by JP1201
The Shaver case is well beyond politics. There is nothing conservative, liberal or constitutional about an agent of the state killing an American without just cause. It is deeply wrong regardless of party or ideology. Bernie Sanders voters and the most ardent Trump supporters all should be united in outrage over the death of Daniel Shaver.
Maricopa County District Attorney Bill Montgomery got it right by charging Brailsford with second degree murder. The jury got it very wrong. Shaver should be alive, and his death must be taken as a call to action. Police departments should establish that a suspect always has the ability to show hands and lie down on the ground for arrest. Complicated law enforcement commands that require mobility and balance — under threat of execution — cannot be an acceptable standard.
When good faith efforts to respond to police commands can be met with a hail of bullets, we are all in jeopardy, and the work of all law enforcement officers becomes more difficult and dangerous.
(Excerpt) Read more at thehill.com ...
Nap time already? Sleep tight, pops. Sweet dreams of AR-15’s inscribed with “You’re F***ed.”
Shaver reaches behind his back where he could very well have been hiding a concealed weapon the first time- NOONE shoots him them- but the cop explicitly tells him in no uncertain terms that if he does that again he will be shot- infact he tells him two times to make sure the fella understands
COP: Your hands go into the small of your back or down, we are going to shoot you. Do you understand me?
SHAVER: Yes, sir.
What does shaver do? Yup- reaches behind his back a second time after being warned not to- It doesn’t matter the reason why-0 there is no time out to figure out why- there is only a split second decision that needs to be made which is why the cops demanded that he not to do what he did the first time- They gave him a chance to comply after the first mistake when he reached behind- and they made sure he understood what he was being told- it was a tragedy that the fella ignored the police and regrettably ended up shot- but he was warned- several times about what to do and not do-
This despite the fact that there are numerous police supporters on this thread—people who tend to give officers the benefit of the doubt in almost all instances—who have rightly declared that this incident constituted nothing less than an execution of an unarmed man.
When any unarmed man is killed, the police had better have a very well-founded justification. Only a coward shoots someone using the flimsy basis cited in this case.
To claim that some officer couldn't have gone up an cuffed this guy because of the presence of a doorway is just ridiculous.
If cops can get away with shoots like this, they can get away with anything, including the murder that they got away with in this case.
You're attempts to justify this completely unacceptable behavior are extremely disturbing, and demonstrate the fact that the police can do no wrong in the eyes of some. Just disgusting...
You’ve posted this PR for Mesa PD enough times to qualify as spam. Spamming is frowned upon here. Wouldn’t want anyone to think you’re a shill, would you?
Shaver reaches behind his back where he could very well have been hiding a concealed weapon the first time- NOONE shoots him them- but the cop explicitly tells him in no uncertain terms that if he does that again he will be shot- infact he tells him two times to make sure the fella understands
COP: Your hands go into the small of your back or down, we are going to shoot you. Do you understand me?
SHAVER: Yes, sir.
What does shaver do? Yup- reaches behind his back a second time after being warned not to- It doesn’t matter the reason why- there is no time out to figure out why- there is only a split second decision that needs to be made which is why the cops demanded that he not to do what he did the first time- They gave him a chance to comply after the first mistake when he reached behind- and they made sure he understood what he was being told- it was a tragedy that the fella ignored the police and regrettably ended up shot- but he was warned- several times about what to do and not do-
Spammer.
[[This despite the fact that there are numerous police supporters on this thread—people who tend to give officers the benefit of the doubt in almost all instances—who have rightly declared that this incident constituted nothing less than an execution of an unarmed man.]]
i don;t care what emotional reactors state- I care what the evidence showed-
[[When any unarmed man is killed, the police had better have a very well-founded justification.]]
Again- this is getting monotonous- there was a well founded reason- read my post above-
[[To claim that some officer couldn’t have gone up an cuffed this guy because of the presence of a doorway is just ridiculous.]]
No sir you are wrong- it is good police work- cops get ambushed all the time- they deserve the tactical advantage in what could potentially be a very dangerous situation- I’m not sure why you can’t see that- but police all over the net have supported the fact that no- he should not have just walked up and handcuffed the person for the very reasons i stated- so all you supposed ‘cop supporters who denounce the actions’ don’t really mean much
[[and demonstrate the fact that the police can do no wrong in the eyes of some.]]
Wow- emotion much? I never said they can’;t do anything wrong- I simply made the case that in this incident they didn’t do anything wrong- What i find disturbing is that folks think a cop doesn’t have a right to shoot after warning a fella several times not to do what the fella inevitably did in a situation where he was reported to have a gun- You can find it ‘disgusting’ all you like- I don’t care- the facts speak for themselves- and you and i have the extreme luxury of hindsight and fact analysis that the police didn’t have in a stressful situation- there was NO way they could have known he didn’t have a gun- they didn;t have the benefit of the video and had to make a split second decision- the right one- as many police have stated- even the4 prosecution’s policeman witness said he would have made the same decision- which didn’t bode well for the prosecution
“I actually approve of the killing of Oscar Grant.”
I agree, but still murder by cop is a no no, even if he did deserve killing.
standing there shouting convoluted instructions and pointing a menacing gun at someone, all the while wearing your super macho not official outfit with all the Robocop bells and whistles, and treating the uncharged, un arrested people like trash, is NOT what I expect a good cop to do...
a good cop defuses the situation, he does not escalate it...
Reg, “Bob” has size 44 coveralls and a size 4 hat. He says he’s had “two run ins with the police and came out o.k.!” I don’t know how old he is, but I just turned 77 and I, like 99% of the population have never had a “run in’ with the cops in my life. So, somewhere along the way “Bob” has had “opportunities” to display a behavior that brought him to the cops attention. That makes my case for his hat size. Cheers!
this....
whether you're on the right or the left, as soon as you start making excuses for expediency in the treatment of citizens, we are sunk....
kill the druggies, kill the drunk, kill the teenagers with long stringy hair....kill...kill...kill...
abortion is expediency...and soon we may very well start killing off the disabled and elderly.....we'll find an excuse, and a good one, like "nobody wants to live like that"...
I believe I’ve been swatted before, twice, both while driving. I no longer trust police. I once did, but they were I believe largely trustworthy several decades ago. Now, it seems as if even county deputy sheriffs have been afflicted with the paramilitary attitude, and it disturbs me. Time to speak out and rein it in, before it’s too late. This sort of verdict for such an egregious abuse of an innocent man will lead to reprisals and vigilantism, then it’ll really be on. Seems as if a whole lot of what has transpired is intended to provoke exactly that.
Look at 3:52 & 4:26. The guy is not on his stomach either time. He reached his hand(s) behind his back both times. He was repeatedly told and warned to keep his hands in view and never told to put his hands behind his back.
Reasonable people should expect two thing in situations like this. 1) The guy/perp should not do anything that would make the cop fear for his/her safety and 2) The cop should not shoot until the last possible moment when he/she does fear for his/her safety.
One thing is clear the guy/perp repeatedly caused the cop to fear for his safety even after being repeatedly instructed and warned against moving his hands to his back. He didn't even try not giving the cop reason to fear and shoot.
The cop did at least try, since he did allow the guy/perp once to reach behind his back with only a warning. But the cop's nerves and reflexes were pushed beyond their limit when the guy did it again more quickly and while in movement closer to him. The cop was spooked into firing - even before seeing something in the guy's hand. (Many cops have been shot and killed waiting longer because a hand can move much faster than the eye can always determine what is in it.)
Insulting someone's mother from the safety of online is the mark of the kind of big-talking chicken-assed punk that would automatically see cops as their enemy and always wrong!
Advice: Next time you can't think of a response to the particular points of a post you disagree with, not replying at all would be better than a low-life reply that shows you to be not only brainless but ball-less too
[[Bob...cops aren’t supposed to set out to murder people...]]
Good thing they didn’t set out to murder him then- they gave4 him plenty of chance to comply
[[a good cop defuses the situation, he does not escalate it...]]
Which is what they were trying to do- it was the fella that escalated the situation by reaching twice behind his back- after clear instructions not to- there was nothing confusing about those instructions not to reach to his back- had he not reached, he would have been alive today- The cops didn’t go there to murder someone- they went there to arrest someone but unfortunately that someone didn’t comply with clear instructions- The crawling junk ‘confusion’ wasn’t even confusing- AND they allowed him to mess up twice without havign to resort to deadly force- it wasn’t until he clearly ignored the one command he needed to heed that it turned into a possible deadly situation for the police and even for the girl who was near the police at that point-
it’s general courtesy to ping someone when you immaturely insult them here- Yes- I was not a nice guy in my 20’s-
Yes i Screwed up- and yes i paid for it- but i was able to follow instructions and NOT provoke a deadly encounter by causing the police to fear I had a gun- I didn’t ignore commands to cause the situation to escalate, and i didn’t directly and purposely disobey the orders and yes i was drunk at the time- fall down drunk- and still able to follow instructions - you were a good person all your life apparently, well bully for you- doesn’t make up or you acting immaturely though
[[But the cop’s nerves and reflexes were pushed beyond their limit when the guy did it again more quickly and while in movement closer to him. The cop was spooked into firing - ]]
Exactly and that qualifies as justification for ‘justifiable homicide’ in many states and why this police officer was found not guilty according to verdict commentaries online- one only needs to feel threatened to justify shooting in self defense- it is not a prerequisite that the suspect start shooting first or even produce a weapon- if even the perception of violence is given, it is within the law to use violence for self defense- As someone back up thread aid that doesn’t even have to be the criteria- just a suspect disobeying orders is justification when it is perceived that it could be possible that someone has a gun and is not obeying commands- That video i linked to with the police man running up to that fella who ignored him shows how quickly a shooting can escalate when a person refuses to obey and when a gun isn’t even in view-
[[even before seeing something in the guy’s hand. (Many cops have been shot and killed waiting longer because a hand can move much faster than the eye can always determine what is in it.]]
Exactly- the two videos i linked show exactly that and there are plenty more very similar videos online-
let’s be clear about something- i did said gun point- that was incorrect- They made it perfectly clear however they were fully prepared to take whatever steps were necessary to get the situation under control, and acting in a manner that posed a danger to others in my drunken stupor- — because i was drunk and acting out- the police made it perfectly clear i needed to pay attention and obey orders- and the police were not sure how i was going to react- there wasn’t any ar 15’s used by the police, however when a cop has his hands on his revolver- screaming orders at you- you are in danger- and they made it clear they weren’t messing around with me and that i needed to follow instructions- or else- and i don’t blame them one bit for their aggressive stand and screaming and yelling orders at me-
I was an alcoholic and did things I’m ashamed of- But thank you for adding insult to injury- guess you’ve proven that you’re never too old to insult someone in order to make yourself feel better about your own self huh?- One would think with age that the ‘need’ to do that would disappear- I guess not, huh?
the majority of my run ins with the law however were much more lenient than i deserved- and they gave me breaks i didn’t deserve- and even took time to try to talk sense into me not as police, but as someone trying to help me not go down wrong paths - so no- not all cops are power hungry or out of control- Not even the cops in the video- even the two i had run ins with that could have turned deadly were simply doing their job wanting to go home safe at night for everyone involved- but it was more than clear to me that if i screwed up by acting aggressively and disobeying orders, reaching my hands where a weapon could have been stashed, that force was going to be used- There was no ambiguity about what their intentions were- and i was more drunk than that fella that died in the video- but was able to understand that they were not messing around-
cripes i screwed that post about ‘gunpoint’ up royally- I said ‘both undeserved-’ I meant both instances were ‘deserved’- by me- not ‘undeserved’- that’s what happens when you post when overtired-
good golly- I said “take whatever steps were necessary to get the situation under control, and acting in a manner that posed a danger to others in my drunken stupor”
I meant “They made it perfectly clear however they were fully prepared to take whatever steps were necessary to get the situation under control, —BECAUSE I WAS— (didn’t mean to imply they were acting out) acting in a manner that posed a danger to others in my drunken stupor”
That’s it- too tired to continue posting- too many mistakes
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