Posted on 09/03/2017 3:25:45 PM PDT by BlackFemaleArmyColonel
Agreed.
Agreed.
Yes, but if He told the thief “today” but hadn’t gone to the Father until two/three days later (and, assuming from that, heaven), then where is this paradise the thief was going to be with Him at? It appears somewhere different from where the Father is.
Think most people here agree. Some semantic differences is all. PS Agreed.
In looking at the first two centuries of Christianity, one reads accounts of Christianity being spread by the early Christians in living what Jesus taught in treating others as brothers and sisters. It was the Christians who treated the sick in some areas when there were plagues of various types. And the pagans saw that the Christians were living out their belief in Jesus and His teachings. Salvation of their souls came from their faith in Jesus, but their works in fulfilling his teachings spread Christianity among the pagans and gained converts and demonstrated that they lived by the tenants of their faith.
First is Epistemic vs Metaphysical.
On the one hand Jesus saves us, and we merely need to accept it. And on the other Saint James points out that faith is shown through works. A distinction must be made here: we are not saved as a result of being more moral but we are more moral as a result of being saved. Thus "good works" is evidence of that acceptance. It is the acceptance that saves. Good works is not the cause of the salvation, but evidence of it--thus when you have one you have the other.
Second is we can be wrong in assessing good works.
"Good works" in the sense of positive moral change following God's gift of forgiveness is not always something we will recognize in others. We don't really know what its like on the inside of another person--heck we can even be highly deceived about ourselves. Some people might have a biological and psychological disposition that makes being kind and generous very easy for them. Others might find it very difficult to resist being cruel. Only God can judge a person's true moral worth, for only He knows what each of us is really dealing with inside.
Yes, one must take Romans along with James.
I was waiting for Romans 11:6 to be posted.
Have you read James? It’s very short. Please read it.
James is speaking about the evidence of faith, and justification before man.
Well said.
James and Paul are not in opposition, they are back-to-back defending against legalism and antinominaism.
The thief’s soul went to Paradise on Good Friday evening, as soon as he expired. Christ’s soul went to hell, where among other things, He actually defeated satan, stripped him of all power and authority and took from him the keys of Hell and Death. Then on Sunday morning, He arose. There is a lot more detail, but no need swamping you. Trust Christ as your Savior, and THEN learn more details
Nobody could do enough good deeds to make up for the wickedness in their heart. If they say they can, then how can they be true, since such an attitude is proof they haven’t repented? . For those who know that it is only by the grace of God we are saved, they will be so happy, good deeds will result. Good deeds therefore wont get a person saved, but good deeds are an outward evidence that something is taking change in our hearts.
Thank you for your responses.
I just get confused in these faith/works discussions where the thief on the cross is brought up as an example. If Christ told him “today” he would be with Christ in paradise, but two/three days later told Mary He hadn’t been to heaven yet, it seems like there might be a problem with the example - or at least it might not be the mic-drop that it seems to be used as.
Thanks again, though.
If this is the case, then half the Protestants and none of the Catholics are reading their Bibles.
Paradise and Hell were in the same place, separated by “a great gulf”. Heaven was not opened yet; until Christ took His blood up; etc. When Christ arose, so did long dead Jewish believers, and people recognized them. Then when Christ took the Blood to Heaven, He took the risen saints with Him. It’s all in the Crucifixion/Resurrection accounts in several Gospels. Read it.
You have stated the Catholic doctrine well.
Catechism #2005: ‘Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved. However, according to the Lord’s words “Thus you will know them by their fruits.”’
Excellent point!
“you don’t have to worry about adhering to God’s directives.”
Exactly the concern.
And in this day and age, I see so many “Christians” who are not conforming to God’s moral standard. They go to church and listen to Christian Rock, but still are fine with shacking up and screwing, and slacking off.
Hey, I can do anything I want, because Jesus died for me! I think it’s highly disrespectful to not actually try to adhere to the rules.
I grew up in a Calvinist, Evangelical church and I agree that the doctrine of by faith alone is problematic in that sense. IME, people who buy into that thinking strongly tend to downplay the importance of following Christ’s teachings.
The thing is, when the BFA doctrine was originally formulated, it was really just a clever twist on traditional doctrine. Early Calvinists believed that good deeds were the sign that someone had been saved. So in order to be saved, one must do good deeds and be a “visible saint.” In other words, good deeds are necessary for salvation, but interpreted as being an effect of salvation rather than a cause. To me, that’s splitting hairs. Later, people began to push the idea that someone could somehow be saved even if their behavior was un-Christian. That’s where the problems come in.
Justification before man is meaningless. The only justification that matters is before God.
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