[fr_freak]

Let me clarify, so you can calm down a bit. I'm not saying you're a leftist, nor am I saying you are trying to protect muslims, nor are you deliberately using leftist tactics, nor any other such thing. I am just saying that your reaction to this discussion is identical to the one we see used in virtually every discussion of this type that occurs in the public sphere. It wasn't my intention to say anything bad about your character, but only to try to get you to see that this sort of response is conditioned, deliberately, so that no rational discussion of real events can occur. We have ALL been subject to this conditioning, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US, for decades, and we are all still affected by it to some degree or another to the point where we self-censor.

Now, you may deny that you have been affected by this sort of conditioned response, but you can't deny that your first response to people pointing out patterns of racist misbehavior by black people was to accuse them of bigotry and seeing all black people as a threat. If you review what people actually said, you'll see that NOTHING like that was said - it was a conclusion you jumped to. Even the guy who said he never met a black person who wasn't racist - how do we know that isn't true? Maybe he's only met 5 black people in his life and they were all racist (that is certainly possible in my experience, and I've met a lot more than 5).

The replies on this thread up to our discussion were all of the nature: there are black people targeting white people for crime. I didn't see anything that said "All black people are targeting white people for crime" or "All black people are bad" yet, rather than discuss the state of affairs between the two communities, or discuss the circumstances of the original article, we got drastically derailed by your immediate accusations of broad hatred and bigotry. This is the conditioned response of which I speak. If we can't get past all of the knee-jerk "racism racism racism" stuff, we can't ever discuss any solutions to anything, ever, that involve race, nor can we discuss how to protect ourselves from an obvious pattern of attack, because first, we have to defend ourselves continually against a person, such as yourself, who looks to attack US for looking to identify and address an obvious problem.

The reason I brought up the muslim thing is because I was hoping you'd see the parallel. Most people in the US are bewildered by why a country like Sweden or Germany would import thousands if not millions of these thugs into their countries and simply think that the Euros are stupid or have gone mad. But the truth is, that every time a Swede protests what is happening to his country and people, every time a German takes note of the fact that pretty much all terrorism is islamic, every time some euro decries the fact that euro women are beingn raped left and right, there are throngs of people who scream "racism! bigotry! how can you paint all muslims with the same brush? hatred!" and the discussion devolves into accusations and defense EXACTLY as is occurring here, and the real issue, once again, is ignored while it worsens. I hoped you would see that it is an EXACT PARALLEL, and it might make you stop and think "Hey, maybe my reaction was a little knee-jerk, and maybe some of these people who are complaining about black behavior have had actual bad experiences that justify their concerns."

Here's a thought exercise:
If I say "White people can be racist." you're reaction is...what? Maybe, "Sure, some of them can. That's true."

Now if I say, "Black people can be racist." Is your reaction, "Hey, whoa! No need to tar an entire race of people with the same brush! What's with the hatred?"

[sargon]

Now, you may deny that you have been affected by this sort of conditioned response, but you can't deny that your first response to people pointing out patterns of racist misbehavior by black people was to accuse them of bigotry and seeing all black people as a threat.

The first person I responded to on this thread said, and I quote: "I have never met a black that wasn’t a racist."

Now, is that a bigoted statement or not?

Additionally, I've seen many, many threads where white posters indulge in virtually masturbatory bigotry, racial stereotyping, and the like. It's like the "two minutes of hate" from 1984.

I know overt bigotry when I see it, and I know disguised bigotry when I see it. And I see plenty of gratuitous indulgence in it in this community, I'm sorry to say.

I'm not in denial of any of the "patterns of racist misbehavior by certain black people", but I categorically reject any attempt to broad brush them, just as I reject attempts from the Black community to broad-brush Whites.

Even the guy who said he never met a black person who wasn't racist - how do we know that isn't true? Maybe he's only met 5 black people in his life and they were all racist

The fact that you'd even attempt to make such a ridiculous and disingenuous argument immediately tells me that you don't have this issue "figured out" as much as you may think you do.

we got drastically derailed by your immediate accusations of broad hatred and bigotry.

That accusation exists more in your mind than in reality. Please document these "immediate accusations of broad hatred and bigotry". You're clearly reading more into my statements than is actually contained in them.

In any event, the fact is that there are voluminous examples of overt bigotry that are displayed in this community. Some are subtle, others are obvious, and still others are literally bragged about and/or reveled in.

If Blacks are to be "converted" to the cause of Liberty, then posting racially antagonistic diatribes is completely counterproductive to that goal. There are right and wrong ways to present the "facts and figures" than some here are so gleefully eager to point out, and when I see prejudice being gratuitously injected into a discussion in such a way as to potentially alienate Blacks which could otherwise be attracted to the "Cause", I'm going to point it out.

Now, you and I may differ on what constitutes bigoted speech. Indeed, it seems apparent that we obviously do. But for you to speak condescendingly like some kind of "wiser" parent is both uncalled for and flat out misguided, IMHO.

My comments were primarily in reaction to the person who said "every black I've met is racist", and you can act as an apologist for that point of view if you like, but it's an indefensible statement, and one which cannot possibly be accurate, except in the mind of someone predisposed to believe it—even in the face of evidence to the contrary.

Again, consider the sincerity of an adult American making that statement. I hold that it's absurd on its face. Virtually every adult in this country who has ever visited "the city" has met enough Black people to render such a statement patently bigoted. It's disingenuous—to say the least—to argue otherwise, and if you choose to "hang your hat" on the theoretical truthfulness of such a statement, then we truly have no common ground on which to converse. It's an extremist stance—which loosely conforms with the sentiments of your profile page—except, however, that I don't see it as being "in the defense of Liberty" by any stretch of the imagination.

Now if I say, "Black people can be racist." Is your reaction, "Hey, whoa! No need to tar an entire race of people with the same brush! What's with the hatred?"

Of course not. If you'll recall, one of my earliest statements was that "there's clearly more racism in the Black community than in the White community". So, again, disingenuous "though exercise".

My impression is that you're guilty of exactly what you've accused me of: reading more into what people say than is really there. It sure seems to me like you've done that in the case of my postings to this thread.

Other than one specific exception, my references to bigotry weren't directed towards any specific individual who has posted on this thread, but rather towards a general attitude that I frequently encounter: self-indulgent racial antagonism, to the point where it could easily alienate Blacks who could otherwise be attracted to the "America First" movement, or whatever you'd like to call it.

As I've noted, on many threads, such self-indulgence becomes veritably orgiastic, and this serves no constructive purpose. And the relevant facts and tendencies regarding black-on-black crime, black-on-white crime, racist black crime, and the like become totally subordinate to the overall gleeful tone that the criticism frequently tends to take on.

I find it very distasteful, and when I think it goes over the line, I'm going to decry it.

Quite frankly, reacting in a knee-jerk fashion is something I criticize more often than I indulge in myself, although of course nobody is perfect. But I will not retract my statement that I believe there is entirely too much racial antagonism that is indulged in during the course of the presentation of the "facts" surrounding crime in the black community, the perceived existence of some kind of formal "race war", and so on.

Sometimes it seems to me like people become "enlightened"—for about five minutes—only to fall into needlessly strident patterns of thought which are often worse than the repressive patterns they have ostensibly escaped.

And, again, to reiterate, your "thought exercise" for me is rather silly when viewed in the context of the statements I've already made about racism being worse in the Black community than in the White community. Knowing that, why did you even pose it?

In any event, I think this conversation has been exhausted for the moment...