Posted on 07/22/2017 8:03:00 AM PDT by EliRoom8
This is a well prepared and thoughtful YouTube analysis of the Rev.12 "heavenly sign" connected with 12:4(b) "and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered . . ."
The beginning two verses of this chapter have been covered quite extensively for the last six years. Scottie Clarke using Stellarium in 2011 discovered the constellation alignment. Since then a small portion of the pre-trib rapturists accept it and a larger portion of the dispensationalists don't (reject the interpretation as "date setting.")The Presbyterians and Lutherans (Reformed Theology) pretty much eschew most end-time teaching.
What can explain the peculiar obscuring of this part of the night sky by NASA and Stellarium?
I’m just saying that for the fixing of dates such as the Passover the Hebrews used a lunar calendar. The issues with the heavenlies being out of sync with a 360 day calendar were well known even in Moses’ day. So they noted the positions of the sun and moon in relation to other bodies and they used that to fix their Passover and other festivals and made adjustments to their 360 day calendar when things got too out of whack. I’m sure you know that they don’t have their festivals at the exact same dates each year but they have them around the same times...based on a lunar system.
So I understand what God gave the lights of the day and night for, so that we could plan our lives around regular scheduals and live orderly lives. He also by means of the heavenlies, declares His glory!(which is the most important reason of all)
My biggest issue is that Revelation 12 is describing the final 3.5 years of the tribulation, not the beginning. If the notion that September 23 2017 marks the sign of the Woman as per Revelation 12, the we should have already been in the middle of the tribulation period already with 3.5 years to go, watching the effects of Michael throwing Satan onto the Earth and locking him down here! Where is the Beast? Have the Northern powers attacked Israel yet per Ezekiel 38?
You offered, “My biggest issue is that Revelation 12 is describing the final 3.5 years of the tribulation, not the beginning.” The woman is Israel, the child is Jesus. That event happened a couple of thousand years ago so at least that portion 12 IS NOT about the last three point five years of the Tribulation. The timeline of the Revelation is not a smooth line.
quote-Aquarius is also a summer constellation...not one too notable in the skies of the Northern Hemisphere in the March to late April time period when Christ is thought to have been crucified and resurrected.
Mdmathis,
I didn’t mention noticeable. I mentioned when it would be above the heads of us at His Feasts. The sun is traveling through particular constellations during the year- what constellation the sun travels through at His Feasts tell the story of the bible.
The sign above our heads at Passover today, mdmathis, is ‘2 Fish’.
A couple thousand years ago it was what some would call
‘the Ram’- an adult lamb.
And there is a time that’s in the future when the man carrying the jar of water will be above our heads at Passover time.
Those won’t mean much to anyone who hasn’t read the bible but a bible reader would find that interesting.
The man carrying a jar water isn’t at Passover yet. Neither is the Lion above our heads at His Fall Feasts yet.(the woman is still above our heads at that time)
But when the 2 fish gets replaced at Passover with the man carrying the pitcher of water, the Lion will appear above our heads at His Fall Feasts.
It’s coming.
Like I said, His plan is up there.at His Feasts.
1260 days...Revelation 12 says John saw the Woman of the sign had fled into the wilderness 1260 days...for a time, times and 1/2 time. It is speaking of the final 3.5 years. It was a motion picture sign John was watching then....
Context...Context...the sign and the rest of Revelation 12 are linked.
The Bereans would have said “show us” where in the Bible that the constellations can be read into that way!
The prophecies of Daniel being opened up at the time of the end just like the angel promised Daniel that they would be.
Revelation 12 for contextual contrast.... and reference:
“12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
“And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ”.
Say again? that the latter part of Revelation 12 happened 2000 years ago? Yet I know you aren’t a pretirist!
The timeline in Revelation is not a smooth band. The vision condenses thousands of years and in the same paragraph focuses upon specific time during the Tribulation. I’m sure you see that. The dragon has sought to exterminate the ‘woman’ down through History. But God has not allowed it. and no, I’m am anything but a Preterist. Jesus was born of Israel 2000 years ago. In just 30 + short years He was caught up to Heaven. The body of Christ has remained on Earth and in the Earth since Pentecost. The Body of Christ, the Ekklesia, will be caught up out of harms way at the Rapture. I believe that event will happen during one of the Feast Days of The Lord God.
Bereans would be blessed to have the free computer downloaded app that tracks the movements of His sun, moon, stars, planets.
They may have had people that did that back then for them but we can have them on our computers, tablets and phones.
They would certainly be able to see where science says the sun is when Passover(spring) and Tabernacles(fall) is in relation to the constellations.
today:
2 fish-spring
woman- fall (hence the revelation 12 sign discussion)
science can show us that those appear to move in relation to the earth so they won’t always be in the same place over thousands of years.
and what’s next?
future:
man carrying a pitcher -spring
lion- fall
what came before?
past:
ram- spring
balance/scale- fall
Those are Old and New Testament themes.
yesterday, today and tomorrow.
But those can be known from science.
Those aren’t Old and New Testament themes to science or the secular world.
Christianity may be the only ones who can made the connections with the New Testament but they really can’t because they have their own days and feasts/festivals that don’t jive with His Creation or His Word.
If the bereans today started telling time like He teaches in His Word and His Creation, they will start to ‘see’ things in His Word that they’ve been blinded to- just as Paul stated in Romans 12. Conformity to this world is blinding.
But it’s a blindness that can be cured.
good example of blindness-
Today wasn’t Sunday July 23rd to Him.
It was actually a rather important day on His calendar. Commemorated some rather big events.
and hardly anybody knows.
I would comment that it seems they don’t make bereans like they used to.
I’ve been blessed by Him because He showed me how off religion was using this Revelation 12 sign.
The last 3 years I have the woman in the sky. clothed with the sun.
and the moon ended up ‘under her ‘feet’ on a certain day in 2014,2015,2016.
It wasn’t the same day on the world’s calendar.
But it was the same ‘day’ on His.
And had not Judaism changed the way they tell time, they would have joined Christianity as 0 for 3 in missing it. They sneaked by last year so Judaism got a 1 for 3.
How do people who claim to follow the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob be so ignorant of His Creation and His calendar (which isn’t today’s jewish calendar btw)?
No, Bereans would be blessed to first start with what is today according to Scripture, if it isn’t Sunday July 23rd.
They’d start to see a whole lot more in His Word that they weren’t able to see before.
Then maybe they’d be able to show others where they’ve been blinded from amazing Truth above our heads as a witness to the believing and unbelieving world.
His heavens declare His Glory. And the story He tells at His Feasts is His Story.
Judaism could be shown it but Christianity can’t see it yet.
The blind leading the blind..
My first posting in this thread I was arguing that Revelation12 was allegorical in part and predictive in part, encompassing Israel and the birth of Christ and the struggles of the church and the restoration of Israel from 2000 years ago through to the last 3.5 years of the tribulation. Boy did I get criticized about using the term “allegory”. I don’t think we are in disagreement here as one might suppose.
I am less impressed about the constellation thingy then I am with one poster’s citation of various dates and times that are coinciding in September...such as coming into the 70th year of Israel’s existence...one of the generational periods in the bible is cited as 70 years, another is 40, another is 120 years. The days of Noah were 120 years and then the flood came...did God start another count down of 120 years from the foundation of Israel in 1948? Maybe? Who knows?
I just know that things on this Earth are waxing worse and worse and apologies would seem to been necessary to be made to Sodom if they are allowed to continue much longer. Yet this was all predicted in both old and new Testaments. The world has come to resemble the world as it was in the Days of Noah...to quote one comedian..”There’s your sign!”
The Bereans would have demanded a Biblical primer that said....Okay Virgo is really Israel who gives birth the Jesus...and Aquarius was all about Christ who gives living water to the thirsty...and Gemini was all about the Love that David had for his friend Jonathan........But guess what there is no such primer Christian guide to the interpretation of the Constellations(I know a few have attempted to write books on the subject but they are just Rohrshacking the whole thing). I can take any 4 points in the sky and make a crucifix out of it!
Yet I’ve seen the deep photos of the heavens from the Hubble and from various telescopes and I am speechless before the great wonders God has created but not so much the wonders but also the immensity of what he has created...and I reminded that nothing in all that immensity can ever separate us from the love of God! You want a sign....”there’s your sign!”
Remember what Christ said...” it is a wicked and adulterous generation that seeks a sign, There shall be no sign given this generation...save the sign of Jonah!”
There is no height or depth nor breadth that can ever separate of us from the love of God. In him we live and move and have our being! If that be blindness to you, then let me live forever in the light of such blindness!
The kind of blindness I am referring to is the blindness from being able to see the Word Made Flesh.
That Revelation 12 sign tells us a lot about His Birth. A sign in His heavens that points to the birth of Christ. Are people thinking of the future or the past with that Revelation 12 sign because He showed me how to see it from the past.
A revelation of the Word Made Flesh. Is it a big revelation? well, depends on how far one wants to travel down the path..
That sign in His Word easily proves The Word Made Flesh was not born on December 25 like religion tradition tells- but on a day when the woman was clothed with the sun and the moon was under her feet. a couple thousand years ago..
That is the kind of blindness I am talking about.
That sort of blindness is found at His death too..
And people are waiting for Revelation 13 to occur and its occuring spiritually this very day.
I am not seeking a sign, mdmathis.
I am simply watching what His Creation and His Word is saying. His Word is the key that unlocks some amazing wisdom understanding and knowledge of His Creation.
And it’s been much easier to see things after I stopped being conformed to the world that calls today, sunday July 23rd.
To each their own as each are on their own path to Truth.
I have been blessed to see already where satan deceives the whole world like it is written in Revelation 12.
For His Glory
>> If the notion that September 23 2017 marks the sign of the Woman as per Revelation 12, the we should have already been in the middle of the tribulation period already with 3.5 years to go.<<
Simply because the sign occurs in the middle of the Book of Revelation does not necessitate that it is the middle of the Tribulation.
Also, if your thesis is that the Chid being Christ rather than the body of Christ, the Church, your timeline would put Rev 12 two thousand years ago.
Harpazo would indicate that the Acts 1 ascension of Christ from the Mt. of Olives was something of a rescue, quickly and done with outside force.
Phonetic Spelling har-pad’-zo Parts of Speech Verb
Definition
to seize, carry off by force
to seize on, claim for one’s self eagerly
to snatch out or away
King James Word Usage - Total: 13
catch up 4, take by force 3, catch away 2, pluck 2, catch 1, pull 1
The word used is Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
har-pad’-zo Verb
Definition
to seize, carry off by force
to seize on, claim for one’s self eagerly
to snatch out or away
King James Word Usage - Total: 13
catch up 4, take by force 3, catch away 2, pluck 2, catch 1, pull 1
In Acts 1 Christ is not in need of rescue and is patiently giving instructions to the disciples. They, in turn, have to finally be told to leave.
Since this thread is about exhausted on this topic, I would recommend visiting the ERF site for a more thorough briefing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvbZ-eZ_glg
Well Jesus is the Christ come in the flesh...It had to be that way for our sakes for “since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead...as in Adam all shall die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive”. It was the nature of God’s created universe...what tips the balance must be tipped the same way....but since sinful mankind could not of itself save itself, only God in flesh, The man and God Christ Jesus could die and save us...thus tipping the balance for all mankind so that we could repent and be washed in the blood of the lamb! So let the stars shout that one out....and let the saved by grace repeat in vast refrain!
I was using the KJV which said “caught up”....I wasn’t trying to have a “rap” session on the rapture. That’s for another time. Christ went to heaven the same way Enoch did...God the father “took them”.
Well the rapture was a separate issue from Revelation 12 at least for this thread, though the events described therein may well include the rapture of the saints.
I slept on it over night and when I awoke it occurred to me that if there is any direct correlation with the constellation alignments(never mind most of the 9 main sequence Leo stars being binary) on September 23rd it may not be anything to do with the rapture or Israel or ‘rescue’ per se at all. (yeah playing the D-—l’s advocate here...so forgive me) You see while most of the chapter deals with the Woman...there is that little matter of Satan being thrown down via the war in heaven with Michael and the other angels..... do you see where I’m going with this? There is nothing that says this doesn’t have to happen before the trib or even the rapture....but such an event would start to accelerate the growth of evil to Days of Noah levels with unprecedented world wide growth of persecution with particularly pernicious hot spots. Will grace grow stronger as evil abounds more and more? Will certain saints start to be equipped with power enough to fight off the worst onslaughts Satan and his demons can muster? Who can say...
So what if September 23 2017 marks the day Satan and his minions are locked down upon this Earth... if that is the Portent of the sign of the Woman? They still won’t be able to do what they want until the “Restrainer” is taken off the Earth....but evil may still well accelerate. Can they seduce the Northern powers to destroy Israel to nullify God’s promise and therefore destroy the power of his Word?....Ezekiel 38 speaks of one such attempt and what happens to the Earthly power that attempts it. Just a thought....I do believe it hasn’t happened yet, this throwing down of Satan...or it may be in process now! But I believe the fullness of it comes to fruition prior to the latter 3.5 years.
I too have noted that little item concerning that patch of sky near Virgo being blotted out of various astronomical data bases at NASA and Stellarium. There is a lot of confused chatter and its not the first time I had been hearing of such a cover up. Stories of persons being threatened with arrest....some stories about edicts being issued for astronomers to keep their mouths shut....some folks dying mysteriously....yet nothing solid yet but a bunch of whispers and rehashed, recirculated myth and speculations...and lots of photoshop jpegs. Well Revelation speaks of a couple of major asteroid hits, sky falls of ice blocks 100 lbs or more mixed with fire and brimstone, the Earth’s spin increasing by a third to 1333 miles per hour(as we lose 8 hours) and the loss of moon light....so something majorly astronomical may be in the works. Planet X?, Nibiru, ?(with accompanying asteroids and comets) I’m not closed to the notion...!
A clue: all the Bible translations prior to the Rheims use the term ‘the departure’ in translating 2 Thess 2 ‘apostasia’.
He does get all the Glory!
The Word Became Flesh. Sovereignty that we can’t fathom fully in our flesh.
But which Jesus are you talking about?
There appears to be more than one Jesus.
Multiple Jesus’ even, according to another article posted by this same person a little bit ago.
The most popular Jesus is rome’s jesus, but that Jesus according to scripture, is neither the Word Made Flesh nor the Jesus that came in the flesh.
Yes but the greek scholars I’ve read state that “the departure” or apostasia means an abnormal departure from or rejection of or the ‘falling away’ from what should be social norms of decency...hence our modern definition of the term apostacy!. APO means “farthest from” as in “apogee”....and “stasia” from which we derive the term...”stasis” means the “ normal common order” of things. Apostacy there-fore is the rejection of stable common order to a social order that is farthest from that which is good to that social order which is chaotic, sensual; and evil! Study the greek roots yourself if you wish. There are other places in the Bible that point to a general rapture that is most likely pre tribulational(or at least within the first half...but Christ isn’t telling us exactly)...so I’m not anti pre trib. But don’t misinterpret the greek in Thessalonians....I looked it up. It means a free fall of all normal standards into a chaotic anarchic evil world. To bolster that view, even Christ says that the days of his coming would be as the days of Noah and he went onto explain the evils of the times. Genesis describes the dismay God felt when he saw the world of Noah’s day...”and the Earth was filled with violence” to a point that he says...”My spirit will no longer strive with man” and he set the 120 year limit while favoring Noah”
This is the general disordered “apostasia” God found the world in of Noah’s day and and Christ says such days are coming again!
Thessalonians mentions the Restrainer being taken out of the way which may be the taking of the church off of the Earth and with it the taking of the Holy spirit as well or it may be some other special restraining force we know nothing about. Christ did state his elect would escape the evil tribulation to fall upon the Earth when he spoke of the days of Noah so there’s your rapture!
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