See all the scratches on it ?
Posted on 06/26/2017 5:56:24 AM PDT by AU72
TOKYO, June 26 (Reuters) - A U.S. warship struck by a container vessel in Japanese waters failed to respond to warning signals or take evasive action before a collision that killed seven of its crew, according to a report of the incident by the Philippine cargo ship's captain.
Multiple U.S. and Japanese investigations are under way into how the guided missile destroyer USS Fitzgerald and the much larger ACX Crystal container ship collided in clear weather south of Tokyo Bay in the early hours of June 17
Those who died were in their berthing compartments, while the Fitzgerald's commander was injured in his cabin, suggesting that no alarm warning of an imminent collision was sounded.
I think I have interacted with facuetman enough to hope he knows I generally respect him and read his posts when I see them, but I don’t see things the same way with respect to matters like these.
I hope you know it is nothing personal, faucetman.
You know, in reading your post, it makes me understand why I think we (still) have the most capable and talented military in the world.
We value instilling people with the training, capability, responsibility, and the ability to exercise that responsibility.
This in turn make those given the responsibility the correct mindset to accept it and more to use it to do a job as it should be done and done well, instead of trying to do the job to avoid recriminations from a superior (though that always plays some role in everyone, and in some people,a large one.
We make people want to do well because...it is their responsibility...their job! (The perfect American attitude in a military setting...:)
Metric nautical miles? j/k.
Nice work. Interesting data.
I have been operating under the assumption that both ships were steering a straight and steady course when the collision occurred and I always operated under the assumption that if any maneuvering occurred just before impact, it would have been the Fitzgerald bearing away to port just before impact (simply because I assumed they had more eyes on the ocean and would have likely been the one to see the oncoming vessel and take action)
In light of the report from the ACX Crystal, and the existing shipping lanes, do we agree it is more likely that the ACX Crystal was the one doing the maneuvering and bearing away to starboard just before impact, and the Fitzgerald may have been steaming in a straight line as the collision occurred?
(It is possible both ships steered, the Fitzgerald to port, and the ACX Crystal to starboard just before impact.)
Having said that, I lived in Japan for three years and studied "conversational Japanese" enough to be able to wander freely on my own. (I actually was a delegate to the annual convention of the Japan Baptist Convention at Amagi, right there on the Izu Peninsula...) Thus, I know the extreme difficulty of getting an accurate Japanese-English translation. (Example: "two 'crews'" = "2 crewmen"...??)
Of course, as yet, I have zero knowledge of what Advincula's native language might be -- so, we may be dealing with a four-or five-level translation, (incuding Rooterz') here...
~~~~~~~~~~
I firmly believe -- from the damage -- that your "Scissoring" planar description (both vessels turning away from impact) is precisely what happened. I also believe that the Fitzgerald heeled over to port and "slid up and over" the Crystal's bow protrusion. (H/T to you!) So, you and I, IMO, are steadily "closing the gap" re collision dynamics.
Now, I guess we can try to decipher and envision the "Three-Ship Scenario"...
Are we having fun, yet...? '-)
I can’t say it is fun (I understand the use of that phrase in this context as you meant it) due to the loss of life, and the destroyed careers (as this will undoubtedly result in) but I do admit to being completely engrossed in this because I have read about these kinds of things my entire life.
Using the USS Missouri grounding as an example, I stumbled across a book written about that, replete with in depth analysis, court transcripts, damage diagrams, and it was so fascinating that I ended up checking it out three separate times. I would buy it if I could find it.
So this engages me the same way. It fascinates me how the fusion of human behavior and technology can result in disaster, even when everything is set up to avoid it.
And I enjoy reading you analysis, and the questions and opinions put out by other Freepers. I appreciated the input on shipping lanes, because that is not something I was even taking into account, largely because I am ignorant of that and never thought to consider it.
“”I also believe that the Fitzgerald heeled over to port and “slid up and over” the Crystal’s bow protrusion””
The lack of paint scraping on the Crystal’s bulbous bow is puzzling.
1. If the bulbous bow punched a 10 or 14 foot hole below the waterline in the Fitzgerald, there should be some denting of the bulbous bow and/or paint scrapes and the photos show none.
2. If the Fitzgerald slid up and over the Crystal’s bulbous bow, there would be major paint scrapes and bare metal showing on the Crystal’s bulbous bow and the photos show none.
Clearly you didn’t seem to read that i did come-up with a different idea
Before the Collision the US Ship did not seem to be aware of the cargo ship or that they were about to be hit ...Why? why no radar contact why no radio contact why nothing...How the hell does anything that big get that close to a US warship and the US worship is completely unaware of it it’s just nuts
That to me point to a possible failure of systems ...before the collision... including the radio
In other words the loss of the radio was not caused by the collision.... the loss of the before radio and electronics before the collision might have been the cause of the collision
There has speculation the ship was subject of a hack or some kind of em pulse or other some other attack on its systems before the collision ....Could-be something as simple as a system failure that distracted people ...but questiom is why the ship was operating in such a deaf dumb and blind mode to get broadsided by this cargo ship ...Are we talking pure utter incompetence of the crew or something else going on
I am skeptical of the ACX Crystal’s accounts as well, even if I withhold judgement.
This is going to be a big money issue, and this kind of thing, getting your story out first, is a key component of a party setting the stage, knowing all people will remember is their account.
Doesn’t mean they are lying. Doesn’t mean they are wrong. But I think it should be looked at with extra care.
One scenario could be they were in the middle of a war game and were radio silent. This would include radars. I wouldn't think this is likely, but might be a possibility.
In this case, as in my examination of the clues to the Murrah Building's collapse mechanism, etc... I try to confine myself to seeking answers to "WHAT?", "WHEN?", and "HOW?" -- while leaving others the task of answering, "WHO?", and, "WHY?"...
Of course, "WHO?", and, "WHY?" are fertile grounds for wild speculation or the building of spurious theories by the agenda-driven or thrill/attention seekers. Thus, due to unfortunate human nature, that "noise" will always be with us.
IMO, the best we can hope to do is to" improve the signal-to-noise ratio" a bit, for our fellow FReepers.
I hold your efforts along those lines, your sensitive even-handness with others, -- and your analytical thinking -- in high esteem!
That was a great way to put it. That is what I come to FR for. As I get older, I find out that I know less and less each passing day about things I always thought I was informed on...
And I know I can come to FR and find some wheat in an Internet full of chaff!
Just a question: could the Ood have a name of Mo Ben Abdul. Maybe he was looking for the snack bar?
Since I don't want to go back and check, I'll just accept that you did.
That to me point to a possible failure of systems ...before the collision... including the radio
A very good point, and worthy of consideration.
Of course, until the investigation is complete, I doubt that kind of info will be revealed.
There has speculation the ship was subject of a hack or some kind of em pulse or other some other attack on its systems before the collision
Possible. But seems unlikely. What was the motive?
but questiom is why the ship was operating in such a deaf dumb and blind mode to get broadsided by this cargo ship
I think the question would be why would they not wake the Captain, if the comms had been lost before the collision ?
IF the comms were lost before the collision, why weren't the crew using their satellite phones THEN, instead of having to wait until an hour after the crash (due to fighting to keep the ship afloat and rescue their crewmembers) ? Seems to me they would have called in and said they lost their comms.
See all the scratches on it ?
P.S. It is my guess that the Fitzgerald was actually hung up on the anchor and drug along for a while (just a guess, but probably at least several minutes), which is what made the ACX Crystal make such a sharp turn.
Reports are the the entire HULL of the Fitzgerald is TWISTED.
The two scenarios , loss of comms before the collision or radio silence would not explain why the crew of the Fitzgerald had to use Satellite phones to call for help way after the collision.
Of course, it is possible that one of the two scenarios is correct, AND they lost comms during the collision due to the flooding/damage from the collision/etc.
+1. You are doing a great job!
Most of the posters on here say it's pure utter incompetence. A few of the posters say it's something else going on.
I say there is a factor we have not been made aware of yet.
... is what tore the big hole in Fitzgerald's bottom...
But -- I do believe the hawespipe and anchor left their marks on the Fitzgerald!
Here's the big post on my analysis of damage to both ships -- and the conclusion I reached re the relative speeds of the ships at the instant of collision:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/3563696/posts?page=127#127
Look on the lower left of the Fitzgerald damage for what you asked about...
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