> “When one is standing in the trenches asleep as we are while in this physical body, what you say is very true. When we allow our consciousness to grow to higher frequencies, what you say is not true. For example, in demonstrating why Jesus taught what He did, I demonstrate in front of groups that our thoughts and stored memories of our life experiences are physical tangible objects by reading people’s souls in detail. Their thoughts and stored memories are physical to my perceptions. (This is why Jesus spoke of the weeds being planted here while we were asleep in Matthew 13.)”
Afraid you are missing the point there Pastor.
You are talking about what you ‘understand’. Your understanding is not a measurable thing like mass, time, space. If is a thing of ‘consciousness’.
When you say you are ‘tuning to’ or ‘growing to’ ‘higher frequencies’ of consciousness, you are borrowing terms of physical measurement for things which you record in your ‘perceptions’, even describing such things as “physical to my perceptions”, but which are not physically measurable. They are tangible to your perceptions, to your sensibilities, to the framework you’ve developed for your consciousness, but a thermometer cannot measure such things nor could any sensor instrument.
Even if you developed some sort of psycho-social scale such as a Likert scale to measure your congregation’s ‘stories’ and testimonies, you would not be able to formulate a cause-effect relationship that would predict outcomes with a very high degree of confidence such as the launch of a rocket.
Science is about replicating physical results, predicting results by way of calculation.
More importantly, the scientific method can be WRONG and must be testable, meaning capable of yielding wrong results in order to provide value to our knowledge base. Whereas Astrology is by design never wrong.
This sounds confusing. But it’s not.
As a system, astrology is never wrong, it always has an explanation. If it’s not predicting the right outcome, it’s because of ‘operator error’ in for example not taking into account some phase of some moon or some orbit of some planet. It always has an answer, and therefore as a system is able to predict everything as long as its agents, astrologers know how to find the answer and are trained to describe the conditions. It is completely fraudulent and has been proven scientifically to be fraudulent, although people have fun with it as some sort of organizer for their thoughts and ‘perceptions’.
On the other hand, science posits a hypothesis and then devises an experiment or test of that hypothesis. The result can be true, false or inconclusive. Each result yields information and is useful because of the information it provides.
When we are talking about God in Spirit or God in the Flesh, we are no longer talking about science. We are talking about the very essence of consciousness which can never be described by anything computational. Science tries to ‘reduce’ our perceptions, our understandings to computation. So does astrology to some degree. The difference is science CAN BE wrong, whereas astrology arranges itself in a con game of fraud. Christ is ALWAYS true in EVERY INSTANCE. Truth exists but not in astrology. It seems to exist in science but without consciousness, but it doesn’t really exist as truth because it is always and forever INCOMPLETE. But it is useful to us so we tolerate its incompleteness and invest in its growth. Our ideal in science is TRUTH but we never quite get there. The aim in astrology is to wave one’s hands to explain away events and occurrences. Both science and astrology use computation. With Christ, He is never ‘reduced’ to computation, He is the one and only Truth; He is ALWAYS true; we just can’t compute him.
Basic logic is computational. When ‘logic’ states something is true, it means it is true in EVERY INSTANCE. If it returns a true value 999 times and a false value 1 time, then it is NOT true, it is invalid. This is why in science, we say ALL MODELS ARE FALSE, SOME ARE USEFUL. We can devise systems of mathematics or logic that are internally consistent meaning derived forms are valid within the overall axioms and postulates, but such systems are not complete in the sense that these systems do not and can never predict everything. They can be complete within a certain realm of observation, for certain conditions but put under a wider realm, they fail.
Christ is always true in every instance. He is the Only One that is this way. He is True; He is Truth. There is not one instance of him that is false, not one. But He is not scientific, he is not reducible to computation and formulation of physical constants and terms. He is not placeable under our ‘logic’, our scientific methods.
Sir Roger Penrose explains it well. Watch here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuHORQoauWo
“You are talking about what you ‘understand’. Your understanding is not a measurable thing like mass, time, space. If is a thing of ‘consciousness’.”
Consciousness is material and functions in a scientific manner. All you need to do is raise your own consciousness to a level where your perception of reality includes consciousness as physical and material. This is what scientists are missing. It’s the reason Jesus gave us the two “most important” commandments to follow.
You can understand spirituality using a materialistic model, just not at the level of consciousness most people are viewing reality.
“You are talking about what you ‘understand’. Your understanding is not a measurable thing like mass, time, space. If is a thing of ‘consciousness’.”
Consciousness is not only measurable, it has an anatomy & physiology of its own just as the physical body does. Religion(s) are merely theories and philosophies of the anatomy & physiology of the human soul and how it interacts with its environment. That being said, Christianity is very accurate. My experiences have never contradicted what I read in the scriptures, in fact the experiences supported the scriptures and made them easier to understand.
“They are tangible to your perceptions, to your sensibilities, to the framework you’ve developed for your consciousness, but a thermometer cannot measure such things nor could any sensor instrument.”
If I told you as a blind man that all you had to do is open your eyes and see reality, if you had never seen anything you could not comprehend what I was saying. Having experienced sight, it is easy for you to understand.
If you follow Jesus’ teachings and emulate Him rather than just worshiping Him you would find that He is a “perfect example” for us. It’s the reason He said to the disciples when He sent them out, “The things that I do and even more you too shall do in my name.”
Everything Jesus teaches is to help us cleanse our souls and grow to experience God through Him, just as He did during His time in the wilderness.
Even if you developed some sort of psycho-social scale .....”
Just as you hear various tones and pitches in someone’s voice, I perceive consciousness. There are many, many variations to the broadcasts of others.
The key here is understanding the concept of being “Born of the Spirit.” When this truly happens and you realize that just as John 14 states, if we are in Jesus our Father that is also in Jesus is in us. At this time you begin to perceive directly from your soul or spirit rather than being limited to your five senses. In many ways, you are like a walking MRI.
“Science is about replicating physical results, predicting results by way of calculation.”
I am a scientist. After many years as a university professor, I left teaching and returned to the classroom as a student to understand my experiences. I’ll admit, my degree in psychology was pretty much worthless, so I moved on to neuroscience. It is not very difficult to demonstrate what I am saying and to explain it in scientific terms, including the interface between consciousness and the physical body.
I’ll actually be doing an all day program in Phoenix AZ in the beginning of December to demonstrate what I am stating. I use total strangers who are volunteers from the attending group to perform the demonstrations.
“When we are talking about God in Spirit or God in the Flesh, we are no longer talking about science. We are talking about the very essence of consciousness which can never be described by anything computational. “
Not true. Awaken and see for yourself. The things that I do are not me or to promote me, they are merely examples to convince people of the truth in following scriptures. If I am full of myself, then nothing happens as higher consciousness can find no room to enter me.
It is very evident to me that you are a very good person, a Christian, and search for meaning to your life in your Bible scriptures. Seek to understand through reading and studying the Bible and pray on its meaning. No one who asks will be refused guidance. However, sometimes we fight to hold onto our old understanding and resist being moved to a higher level of understanding. The process creates quite a few sleepless nights.
To anyone who feels that I am mis-understanding the process, I only ask that they pray for me that I may gain an accurate understanding of the purpose and process of life. This process is very humbling as in every answered question, there are twenty more unanswered questions. The more you learn, the more you realize that there is much more that you don’t know.
I send a prayerful blessing with this response.
I’m listened to Penrose. Thank you for the link.
Penrose is trying to bring the understanding of higher consciousness down to his level where it is very difficult to understand. It is far better to raise our own consciousness to the higher level of consciousness to the higher level and experience it. This is what Jesus was teaching us to do.
You can read all the instruction manuals on riding a bike, but you never really understand the process until you get on a bike and experience it. From the higher level of consciousness there is expanded storage and processing capacity which combined with the increased processing speed of the higher frequency, it becomes simple to understand.
This is what is spoken of concerning Stephen in Acts 6:10
It is also why Peter and John who were unlearned and ignorant men knew so much in Acts 4:13