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To: Mrs. Don-o
The faithful are particularly free to "dissent" when the clergy themselves are unfaithful. But that is not, perhaps, properly called dissent. It is the defense of doctrine.

The problem then is that if the magisterium is not manifestly doing its job in censuring such then you become the judge of pastors and popes as to who is unfaithful, based upon your judgment as to what church teaching is, which is essentially the thing RCs criticize us for, ascertaining valid teaching by Scripture, and thus insist we need their pope to submit to. Except when they decide that the pope's teaching (in word or deed) does not warrant assent, from its manifest judgment as to what renders one excommunicated, to the latest encyclical, to teachings of V2, at least in part.

Hildegard of Bingen (12th century), not a cleric, engaged in apologetics in the 12th century, though I'm not sure it was with "the likes of you," whatever that signifies. Do you mean, before the 12th century??

• Quinisext Ecumenical Council [also known as the Council in Trullo], Canon 64 (held in 692 at Constantinople): It does not befit a layman to dispute or teach publicly, thus claiming for himself authority to teach, but he should yield to the order appointed by the Lord, and to open his ears to those who have received the grace to teach,. ... But if any one be found weakening [disobeying] the present canon, he is to be cut off for forty days. — http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3814.htm

• We furthermore forbid any lay person to engage in dispute, either private or public, concerning the Catholic Faith. Whosoever shall act contrary to this decree, let him be bound in the fetters of excommunication. — Pope Alexander IV (1254-1261) in “Sextus Decretalium”, Lib. V, c. ii: http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/archive/index.php/t-51631.html

Commenting on the latter, the 1912 Catholic Encyclopedia states,

By a decree of Alexander IV (1254-1261) inserted in "Sextus Decretalium", Lib. V, c. ii, and still in force, all laymen are forbidden, under threat of excommunication, to dispute publicly or privately with heretics on the Catholic Faith...This law, like all penal laws, must be very narrowly construed. The terms Catholic Faith and dispute have a technical signification. The former term refers to questions purely theological; the latter to disputations more or less formal, and engrossing the attention of the public.... But when there is a question of dogmatic or moral theology, every intelligent layman will concede the propriety of leaving the exposition and defense of it to the clergy.

But the clergy are not free to engage in public disputes on religion without due authorization. In the Collectanea S. Cong. de Prop. Fide" (p. 102, n. 294) we find the following decree, issued 8 March, 1625: "The Sacred Congregation has ordered that public discussions shall not be held with heretics, because for the most part, either owing to their loquacity or audacity or to the applause of the audience, error prevails and the truth is crushed. But should it happen that such a discussion is unavoidable, notice must first be given to the S. Congregation, which, after weighing the circumstances of time and persons, will prescribe in detail what is to be done... That this legislation is still in force appears from the letter addressed to the bishops of Italy by Cardinal Rampolla in the name of the Cong. for Ecclesiastical Affairs (27 Jan., 1902)

To which are added such voices as:

* “Do not converse with heretics even for the sake of defending the faith, for fear lest their words instil their poison in your mind.” Bl. Isaias Boner of Krakow (Polish, Augustinian priest, theologian, professor of Scripture, d. 1471)

“...the Church forbids the faithful to communicate with those unbelievers who have forsaken the faith they once received, either by corrupting the faith, as heretics, or by entirely renouncing the faith, as apostates, because the Church pronounces sentence of excommunication on both.” St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Article 9, “Whether it is lawful to communicate with unbelievers?”; http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3010.htm

To which is added current canon law:

* Can. 831 §1 Unless there is a just and reasonable cause, no member of Christ's faithful may write in newspapers, pamphlets or periodicals which clearly are accustomed to attack the catholic religion [no wonder RCs want us censored here] or good morals. Clerics and members of religious institutes may write in them only with the permission of the local Ordinary. - http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0017/_P2P.HTM

But Rome can change.

129 posted on 10/03/2016 2:49:45 AM PDT by daniel1212 ( Turn to the Lord Jesus as a damned and destitute sinner+ trust Him to save you, then follow Him!)
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To: daniel1212

I think you’re resisting a vocation to be a canon lawyer.


130 posted on 10/03/2016 5:02:17 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Point of ... that was the point.)
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