Posted on 04/22/2016 1:24:48 PM PDT by the_doc
I have heard that a lot of Republicans, ESPECIALLY Trump supporters, have said that the candidate who comes into the Cleveland convention with the most delegates should be (automatically?) awarded the nomination even if he cannot get 1237 votes on the first ballot.
I just want to go on record as saying that this widespread notion is politically stupid--even politically monstrous.
The Republican Party's rules since the very birth of the Party have specified that a prospective nominee must achieve a majority of Convention votes to become the nominee. As most FReepers already know, this longstanding fact is not disputed.
Abraham Lincoln, for example, was the 1860 Republican nominee even though it took three ballots for him to win the necessary majority in the voting. By that victory, Lincoln took the nomination away from New York's Senator William Seward--who had gone into the convention widely regarded as the presumptive nominee. Seward had led Lincoln 173 1/2 to 102 on the first ballot--and he still lost the nomination to Lincoln as the best candidate in 1860 for POTUS. (See Wikipedia for the interesting historical details of the struggle to find the Republicans’ best candidate for beating the Democrats in 1860.)
At the risk of laboring the point, I submit that the fellow who waltzed into the Convention as the presumptive nominee was not the best candidate. Lincoln was.
***
I realize, on the other hand, that Trump's supporters will likely call the Convention system horribly unfair--even anti-democratic--if Trump fails to win a majority of delegate votes on the first ballot and then goes on to lose the nomination that he and his supporters covet.
Well, I am sick and tired of the dishonest mantra of "Unfair! Cruz cheated! Cruz stole the election!"--and I intend to shame Trump's supporters in advance if they dare to spew out this sort of crap.
***
Dear FReeper FRiends: The Convention balloting process will essentially amount to a completely necessary RUN-OFF election if Trump fails to achieve the magic number of 1237 votes on the first ballot.
This is as it should be.
To illustrate that: Assume that a progressive Democrat and a conservative Republican and, say, a group of conservative Independents (splitting the conservative votes, of course) are running in a general election for Dog Catcher. Assume furthermore that the Dem gets 49% and the Republican gets 40% and the Independents get a total of 11%. In this scenario, a run-off would be needed. Awarding the much-coveted office of Dog Catcher to the Democrat would be a political travesty.
Well, the same travesty would exist if Trump were declared the nominee by some sort of acclamation without a meaningful political run-off. As it turns out the Convention is the only possible venue for the necessary run-off if Trump does not waltz into the Convention with a majority of delegates. Never mind that the run-off at the Convention would be a run-off using delegates to decide the run-off victor rather than a protocol of more direct democracy. The Convention is the only way to do the run-off.
(Besides, the idea of having only Convention delegates voting in the run-off [or run-offs, as necessary] actually follows our Constitutional Framers' pattern of electors choosing national-level winners, not the rabble of the hoi polloi.)
***
I assume that most FReepers are savvy enough to back away from the simplistic, anti-Republican (and downright, antinomian) position that getting close to a first ballot majority is good enough for immediately declaring Trump the nominee. I assume that FRumpsters would say, “Oh, we’re just saying that getting close to a majority amounts to a revelation of the will of the Party at the grass roots level. Therefore, non-Trump delegates should understand that they have a democratic responsibility to switch their votes to Trump on the second ballot.”
But that argument, too, is asinine. In the first place, one of the reasons why Trump will get at least close to a majority on the first ballot at the Convention is because he has tended to win open primaries. But as Rush has argued, Trump knowingly made hypocritical charges against George W. Bush for the 9-11 incident as a way of drawing Democrats over to him in South Carolina.
Democrats, all of whom are ideologically opposed to our Republic (whether they realize it or not), have helped Trump keep alive the prospect of a first-ballot win in the upcoming Convention--because many of Trump's big pick-ups of delegates have come from open primaries. This situation represents dangerous ideological ground for our Party. Citing Trump's open-primary victories and saying that these give us a lovely reason to make Trump our nominee is actually a RINO notion, a stupid notion (of pandering populism) that it is important to embrace Democrat ideology. This RINO thinking is practically the only reason why the Democratic Party is still nationally viable in American governance. The RINO approach to politics—which is often identified with the GOPe but which really boils down to cowardly pandering for good will with ideological fools—will ultimately prove to be deadly for our Republic if we don’t start electing real Constitutional Republicans.
(If a Progressive Democrat running for the terribly important office of Dog Catcher got only 49% of the popular vote, then a Conservative Republican must demand a head-to-head run-off—not just throw in the towel saying, Ah, the people have clearly spoken. True conservatives will fight and fight hard.
It goes without saying that we have never had a nationwide series of head-to-head, one-on-one elections (or even one-on-one public TV debates of policy) between Trump and his closest competitor, Senator Cruz. [Now that is one political fight that ought to be televised—which is why Trump ain’t going there.])
In the next place, if Trump gets 49% of the votes on the first convention ballot, he will have achieved a delegate-based near-majority with less than 40% of the popular sentiment expressed in the primaries—and that lower figure even includes quite a few Democrat numbskulls (who have perhaps nationalistic but still oddly un-American political ideology). My main point here is that Trump has benefited from State Republican Party rules that have given him a disproportionately high number of delegates (even as Trump has hypocritically leveled nasty and conspicuously false charges against the Party [and against Cruz in particular] for supposedly cheating, for wickedly disenfranchising the voters!).
In the next place, a huge percentage of the delegates for Trump will have come from the Northeast, especially Trump’s home state of New York. Boasting that Trump’s victory over the Constitutional conservative Ted Cruz is practically a sign from heaven that Trump must be proclaimed the nominee just for getting close on the first Convention ballot is, under the circumstances, asinine.
(By the way, one of the main reasons why Cruz’s numbers were so low is because many of the genuinely conservative Republicans who still reside in New York have actually left the New York Republican Party and formed the Conservative Party. This Party includes 150,000 genuinely principled conservatives who could not vote in the closed “Republican” primary.)
The Northeast does have a lot electoral votes for the general election, but the majority of voters in the U.S. do not have what I would “Northeast values.” This is important in the overall political calculus! We must not be unduly impressed if Trump takes a lot of delegates to the Convention from the Northeast. Most Northeastern states are practically write-offs for any Republican candidate in November.
What is even more ominous, while Trump is boasting that he would win his home state of New York in the general election, the voter turnout in the Democrats’ recent New York primary strongly argues otherwise. The smart money says that Hillary would crush Trump in New York—which happens to be her home state, too, at this time—during the general election. So, New York would not be on the proverbial “electoral path to victory” for Trump any more than it would be on such a path for Cruz.
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In the final analysis, we need to remember that Trump appears to have a popularity ceiling of less than 40% among Republican voters. Many Republicans who regard Trump as a RINO—this time, a thoroughly crass RINO--will hold their noses and vote for him if he is the nominee; however, I can assure my FRumpster Friends that many, many Republicans will NEVER vote for Trump—NO MATTER WHAT.
The NeverTrump crowd will include many of the GOPe elitists and their devotees (who have given indications, according to Rush, that they would prefer Hillary over Trump.) Probably a more ominous percentage of the NeverTrump crowd are those genuine Christians—arguably the very base of the Party—who regard Trump as, not merely a necessarily imperfect sinner, but the most brazenly phony Christian ever to run for the White House as a Republican.
I believe that a contested Convention in Cleveland would force some very serious soul-searching on the part of Trump delegates. I think many of them will conclude that Trump’s profane arrogance could very well cost us our Republic. If they think Cruz has a better chance of beating Hillary, they will need to do what they are supposed to do in the Republican Convention.
At the bottom line, FRumpster Friends, that is the proper way to see a contested Convention as a politically necessary run-off. If Trump cannot reach a majority on the first ballot, he is not clearly a great candidate—even you personally think Trump is a wonderful, noble patriot and the only hope for our Republic. So, please don’t be so dishonorable, so un-American, as to call it cheating if the Party follows its own well-documented rules and winds up eliminating your guy on the final ballot.
Here’s another point of view (out of 5 million 672 thousand and 51...)
The GOP may rig the convention — in Trump’s favor
“http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/the-gop-may-rig-the-convention-in-trumps-favor/article/2589226";
I can see the spineless GOPes doing this. Prepper Alert!
Really? That's what the estabs have been doing the past month by supporting teddy? Following teddy's lead?
I only respond to your post to make an observation.
It is surreal how you trumpers look at a man and see a leader that you can trust.
The rest of us see a phony flim-flam man who has been a liar and a cheat all of us life.
Well, but that’s today.
And there were all the yesterdays.
And yesterday is not gone.
I trust nobody.
I’m willing to give him a chance, especially since he has shown, through the primary process, that he has the best, if not only, chance to win the general election.
I’m not going into this with my eyes closed relying on blind faith.
I cannot say the same for many zealots here on this forum who support Cruz.
Grab your pitchfork, lady, you would love to dance around that, wouldn’t you?
“Sorry, Trump goes to the convention with 1240+...”
Then I’ll vote for him in November.
Then we don't have a problem. Cruz can stay in.
Exactly.
“Grab your pitchfork, lady, you would love to dance around that, wouldn’t you?”
My pitchfork has been ready and aimed for months now at any and all Trump opponents. And I will dance at Trump’s victory celebration, which is coming soon. You are on the wrong end of the pitchfork.
Good. Then we don't have a problem. Cruz can stay! :-)
Rules, rules, rules. The rule is, Ted Cruz is not eligible to be president under his own definition when describing Obama. See YouTube. At that time, the Senator hadn’t disclosed he was Canadian. His father is an illegal immigrant. Oh, the records are sealed. Where have I heard that before? Another Manchurian candidate.
Well then you do agree....there is a plausible path forward for either man to be sworn in as President.
As long as that is in play I will continue to support the candidate of my choosing because we do not even have a nominee yet.
BTW I know exactly what they both have to do to win this.
...”its the the denial stage of grief”.....
Well actually it’s not....I never underestimate what horses in a race can pull off in the last lap...and neither should you. The race is STILL on if you’re paying attention to more than what you’re fed.
Sorry, but miniscule does not equal plausible.
Go ahead and throw the convention
Use whatever rules you can cite or rewrite to justify it
Then go home and prepare for the party to fracture for a generation or more and to have single party democrat rule in America
Guarantee your 2020 convention will be much much smaller
Much much smaller
No big tent needed
Even that can make a difference...
Actually, absent a massive change here and no the regurgitation of “Trumps a Liberal stealth democrat” is not new nor is it working obviously. Trump is almost certainly going to win on the first vote. Cruz’s chances to win at convention are up there with Hillary being a virgin still.
Why this level of certainty, Because if Trump gets over 1100 going in he can get unbound delegates to make up the difference for the first vote. How you ask? Because not all unbound are Cruz supporters. Fact is most are not. Trump is a Billionaire and he has Manfort negotiating in his corner. So the Best delegate wrangler and almost unlimited resources. Whats the odds he cannot get enough to put him over? Now Trump has about 850 now. so another 250 or so and hes in that zone. What are the odds Trump can get 250 or more before the Convention?
So yes, there is a chance there is a 2nd vote. Same as a meteor hitting the convention center.
Oh and Trump locked down the RNC support recently. He offered to help fund the down Ticket races. That’s game set and match.
You illustrate my point perfectly. The race is over. It’s now down to the photographer of the “photo finish”. In actual fact, a majority will be realized before the convention, as sitting R Senators and Congressmen realize they will be the ones voted against should this travesty continue. You can already see this, and by next weekend, it will be all over.
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