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Rubio lawyers swat down 'birther' challenge
The Hill ^ | 01/14/2016 | Ben Kamisar

Posted on 01/14/2016 11:29:42 AM PST by GIdget2004

Marco Rubio's lawyers are defending his eligibility to run for president in a quixotic legal challenge that alleges he isn't a natural-born citizen.

A Florida voter filed the suit, which claims that the senator isn't a true "natural-born citizen" under the Constitution because his parents were not both U.S. citizens at his birth in Miami.

The challenge occurs as 2016 rival Ted Cruz has been thrust into the spotlight by repeated "birther" challenges by party front-runner Donald Trump and other critics because the Texas senator was born in Canada.

So far, only Cruz has faced significant questions from those challenging his natural-born status. But the legal brief shows Rubio's lawyers trying to cut down the accusations at an early level.

The 34-page document, first disclosed by the Tampa Bay Times, casts aside the claim, noting that under the voter's logic "at least six other Presidents of the United States were not natural born citizens and were therefore ineligible for that office."

(Excerpt) Read more at thehill.com ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: ineligible; naturalborncitizen
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To: RobbyS

I’ve been wondering when they divorced and whether or not there were earlier separations. In any event one of them had to have been at the very least a Canadian Permanent Resident, because Canadian law required at lest one parent to be that or a Canadian citizen in order for the child to acquire Canadian citizenship at birth.


121 posted on 01/14/2016 11:54:49 PM PST by WhiskeyX
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To: bushpilot2
 photo image_zpsk2lyjyo0.jpeg
122 posted on 01/14/2016 11:56:33 PM PST by bushpilot2
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To: RobbyS

Until the latter part of the 19th Century the children born abroad with U.S. citizen parents usually did not acquire U.S. citizenship at birth and had to naturalize after birth to acquire U.S. citizenship. This was during the early period when each State was responsible for establishing its own State citizenship and naturalization requirements. The Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, and 1802 attempted to address these problems, but they were repealed except for the one in 1802 left many such children without U.S. citizenship for decades to come. S, you certainly cannot use the word “always” to describe something that was usually not the case for many decades.


123 posted on 01/15/2016 12:04:10 AM PST by WhiskeyX
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To: No Dems 2016

We haven’t forgotten anything. We remember who done us wrong like an elephant, regardless of which political party they profess to represent.


124 posted on 01/15/2016 12:07:52 AM PST by WhiskeyX
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To: No Dems 2016
-- Put simply, I don't think that you personally realize how many people there are that are marginalized by your side's interpretation of the Constitution. Indeed, you seem quite unbothered by that. I find that rather disconcerting. --

The constitution isn't as harsh or black and white as is casually discussed. Art IV Sec. 2 citizenship tracks citizenship of a state, which is driven by domicile. Domicile is where you live. Most people wander from where they live, and that doesn't change their domicile.

But it's awkward to talk with those long-phrases, and the history (of the law) and other materials use shorthand of "where you were born," even though that is not exactly what the constitution says.

-- Now sit back and try to view that statement from my perspective and see how arrogant that sounds. --

I understand and agree, and accept the label. I think it would be odd if a person didn't view it as arrogant, or cock-sure, or similar. I get weary of pointless discussions with people who are determined to get to a certain outcome just because it's the one that "feels like that's how things should be." The debate becomes obtuse, pedantic, and sophistic, and I lack patience.

-- I just can't see how it's settled, as you say. --

My sense that it is settled as a matter of law comes from reviewing the precedents. A person born abroad (that's the shorthand I discussed above) is naturalized, period. So says SCOTUS, every time a born-abroad citizenship case is decided. That's the right conclusion if one follows the rules of citizenship set up in the constitution. It's relatively simple logic, needs no reference to statute, and comports with the law of nations where people are a citizen of one country or another.

FWIW, diplomats are carved out - they are are deemed to always be in their home country, no matter where they are in the world.

-- I think that qualifies as a controversy and shows that this issue needs to be resolved in the courts. --

It's a controversy in the public, for sure. The public is confused about almost everything. And the legal scholars are working overtime to condition the public to accept that naturalized citizens should be able to ascend to the presidency. But today, the constitution doesn't allow that. To accept it is a step toward one-world-government. That step WILL be taken. Our national identity is being erased, slow, steady, and sure.

I'm glad I was mistaken, thinking you were pig-headed.

125 posted on 01/15/2016 12:11:50 AM PST by Cboldt
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To: WhiskeyX

Congress made the US a heterogeneous quagmire, just like Caracalla did Rome,, and the natural born Roman citizens lost their liberty.


126 posted on 01/15/2016 12:35:33 AM PST by bushpilot2
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To: unlearner
If citizenship is conferred at birth, then the child is a natural born citizen.

Your own words prove you wrong.

Conferred versus acquired.

You did write your statement knowingly, didn't you?

127 posted on 01/15/2016 3:47:11 AM PST by philman_36 (Pride breakfasted with plenty, dined with poverty and supped with infamy. Benjamiin Franklin)
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To: unlearner
...specified exactly who would be a "natural born citizen".

Where? Which specific words do that?

The plainest, simplest, most consistent definition of natural born citizen is a person who receives citizenship at birth. This may be either through being born in the land or being born to a parent who is a citizen, according to the applicable law of naturalization enacted by Congress which is within its Constitutional purview. Being a natural born citizen means he or she does not have to go through a process called "naturalization" in order to become a citizen.

Anyone who uses an "applicable law of naturalization enacted by Congress" is a naturalized citizen automatically...which you say doesn't happen...I have not seen one shred of evidence that a person can be automatically "naturalized" at birth.

ROTFLMAO! Too funny. Do you not know that you contradicted yourself in the manner of a few sentences?

128 posted on 01/15/2016 4:08:11 AM PST by philman_36 (Pride breakfasted with plenty, dined with poverty and supped with infamy. Benjamiin Franklin)
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To: Cboldt

Thank you for your very courteous and professional reply. Thanks to these exchanges, I feel better educated and am very open to a ruling or a very different interpretation from what I would prefer.

“But it’s awkward to talk with those long-phrases, and the history (of the law) and other materials use shorthand of “where you were born,” even though that is not exactly what the constitution says.”

I agree. If there’s something that’s frustrating and complicated, it’s US immigration and citizenship laws. As a personal illustration of this, when I lived overseas for an extended period, I was advised to maintain my ‘American-ness’ by doing things like keeping my passport up to date, maintaining a Social Security number, voting (by overseas absentee) and filing US income tax returns. In other words, do things that show you want to remain an American even though you’re living overseas. I never had any problem or any questioning of my US citizenship (mainly I believe because I am US born), but the vagueness and generalities about all this wasn’t very reassuring. I have now lived back in the United States for years and have had no problems at all, but I can imagine some of the difficulty that an American who was born abroad and then lived abroad would have in trying to maintain their citizenship or wanting to be thought of as a natural born citizen.

“The debate becomes obtuse, pedantic, and sophistic, and I lack patience.”

I fully understand - I also can get impatient!

“To accept it is a step toward one-world-government. That step WILL be taken. Our national identity is being erased, slow, steady, and sure.”

Yes, I know and that’s sad. Like I mentioned to someone else that, after the Obama years of blatant disregard for the laws and Constitution of the United States (as well as the terrible lack of enforcement of our immigration laws mainly because both parties are worried that it will cost them the Hispanic vote), one really wonders if this whole debate about Ted Cruz will really go anywhere and that’s not as it should be. Obama wants us to cease to be an exceptional nation and become a secular liberal country that has little difference from Europe.

However, after discussing this with you and others who know legal precedent better than I do, I now fully agree that Ted Cruz is going to need some sort of clarification or new ruling (most likely from SCOTUS) to fully clear this up. There are simply too many questions, and while I personally think it would be unfair to Cruz to deny him the presidency based on this, I will accept whatever and however the courts rule.

As Donald Trump said last night, there’s a big question mark over Cruz’s head and the Dems will stop at nothing to try to stop the GOP nominee. This would be a problem for Cruz so he better start figuring this out if he wants to continue running.

“I’m glad I was mistaken, thinking you were pig-headed.”

I’m also very glad that I was mistaken in thinking you were arrogant.

Just for interest sake, what do you think of the notion that Marco Rubio is ineligible to be president because while he was born in the US, his parents were not yet naturalized when he was born? That’s one I’d never heard before and would be interested in what you thought.


129 posted on 01/15/2016 10:38:29 AM PST by No Dems 2016
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To: philman_36

The point is that no one is a citizen before they are born.


130 posted on 01/15/2016 11:52:22 AM PST by unlearner (RIP America, 7/4/1776 - 6/26/2015, "Only God can judge us now." - Claus Von Stauffenberg / Valkyrie)
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To: philman_36

“Do you not know that you contradicted yourself in the manner of a few sentences?”

Show me any evidence that natural born = naturalized at birth. On the contrary, there are two types of citizens — natural born, i.e. citizens at birth, and naturalized, i.e. those who become citizens later through a process determined by Congress (or through an act of Congress to make them citizens).


131 posted on 01/15/2016 11:55:13 AM PST by unlearner (RIP America, 7/4/1776 - 6/26/2015, "Only God can judge us now." - Claus Von Stauffenberg / Valkyrie)
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To: WhiskeyX

I will break this down simply. A natural born citizen is one who has citizenship from birth by virtue of either of the parents’ citizenship OR by virtue of where the birth took place. While there may have been a general consensus about who this applied to when those words were penned in the Constitution, there were at least some cases in which they had to be spelled out. So the naturalization act of 1790 did spell out that foreign birth did not preclude natural born citizenship. “Considered as” is a term applied not only to natural born citizens but to the naturalized citizens as well. It simply means that it is legally so.

All of these legalese logical backflips are unnecessary. The Constitution was not meant to be a foreign language document capable of only being deciphered by scholars who spent their entire lives studying laws. It is simple and straightforward. If someone has to go through all of these technicalities to develop their legal theory, it must be wrong.

A simple look at the first law of naturalization supports the simple idea that there are two types of citizens - natural born, i.e. citizens at birth, and naturalized, i.e. made citizens by a process. It also supports the idea that Congress has the authority to determine who is a natural born citizen by statute, as part of its authority to determine processes of naturalization.

No one has put forward an example to disprove this. Instead complex theories have been put forward to reach a different conclusion, and these different conclusions are presented as evidence against the simple, plain explanation.


132 posted on 01/15/2016 11:56:57 AM PST by unlearner (RIP America, 7/4/1776 - 6/26/2015, "Only God can judge us now." - Claus Von Stauffenberg / Valkyrie)
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To: unlearner
The point is that no one is a citizen before they are born.

That's an observation, not a point.

Show me any evidence...
How about your own words?
This may be either through being born in the land or being born to a parent who is a citizen, according to the applicable law of naturalization enacted by Congress which is within its Constitutional purview.
...who become citizens later through a process determined by Congress...

Isn't "at birth" when you said it happened? Congress says it is. Your words indicate it is as well. Why do it later?

You want your cake and to eat it too. Sorry, you don't get it that way.

133 posted on 01/15/2016 12:05:51 PM PST by philman_36 (Pride breakfasted with plenty, dined with poverty and supped with infamy. Benjamiin Franklin)
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To: unlearner
It also supports the idea that Congress has the authority to determine who is a natural born citizen by statute, as part of its authority to determine processes of naturalization.

No it doesn't!

And if it does then simply cite the exact statute that you believe Congress enacted that makes someone a natural born citizen.

134 posted on 01/15/2016 12:28:33 PM PST by philman_36 (Pride breakfasted with plenty, dined with poverty and supped with infamy. Benjamiin Franklin)
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To: No Dems 2016
-- what do you think of the notion that Marco Rubio is ineligible to be president because while he was born in the US, his parents were not yet naturalized when he was born? --

I think he too is unqualified, but the argument is much more difficult to sustain than it is in Cruz's case. On this one, there is no parallel precedent, unlike Cruz where we have the Bellei case.

I couldn't do the argument justice, and while I wish I had a link or ten to send you to what I consider reliable sources, I can't even do that.

135 posted on 01/15/2016 12:54:12 PM PST by Cboldt
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To: philman_36
"then simply cite the exact statute that you believe Congress enacted that makes someone a natural born citizen"

The first law of naturalization was enacted by Congress a mere 18 months after the Constitution was ratified.

United States Naturalization Law of March 26, 1790
Titled: "An act to establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization"
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America, in Congress assembled, That any Alien being a free white person, who shall have resided within the limits and under the jurisdiction of the United States for the term of two years, may be admitted to become a citizen thereof on application to any common law Court of record in any one of the States wherein he shall have resided for the term of one year at least, and making proof to the satisfaction of such Court that he is a person of good character, and taking the oath or affirmation prescribed by law to support the Constitution of the United States, which Oath or Affirmation such Court shall administer, and the Clerk of such Court shall record such Application, and the proceedings thereon; and thereupon such person shall be considered as a Citizen of the United States. And the children of such person so naturalized, dwelling within the United States, being under the age of twenty one years at the time of such naturalization, shall also be considered as citizens of the United States. And the children of citizens of the United States that may be born beyond Sea, or out of the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born Citizens : Provided, that the right of citizenship shall not descend to persons whose fathers have never been resident in the United States: Provided also, that no person heretofore proscribed by any States, shall be admitted a citizen as aforesaid, except by an Act of the Legislature of the State in which such person was proscribed.
136 posted on 01/15/2016 1:10:12 PM PST by unlearner (RIP America, 7/4/1776 - 6/26/2015, "Only God can judge us now." - Claus Von Stauffenberg / Valkyrie)
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To: philman_36

“Isn’t ‘at birth’ when you said it happened? Congress says it is.”

Naturalization is the process of becoming a citizen through a process specified by law. It CAN be based on when and where someone was born, but it does not make applicable people retroactively citizens at birth. So, for example, Congress amended the Constitution to insure that blacks who resided in the US were unquestionably citizens. They did not have to apply to become citizens, but they were naturalized.


137 posted on 01/15/2016 1:16:19 PM PST by unlearner (RIP America, 7/4/1776 - 6/26/2015, "Only God can judge us now." - Claus Von Stauffenberg / Valkyrie)
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To: unlearner
And the children of citizens of the United States that may be born beyond Sea, or out of the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born Citizens...

You have got to be kidding me.

That means that those naturalized under the act would have the same protections under the law as a natural born citizen did, not that they became a natural born citizen through the passage of the law.

Please tell me you're not as simple minded as you appear to have been and that you've simply misconstrued what they meant!!!

138 posted on 01/15/2016 1:21:58 PM PST by philman_36 (Pride breakfasted with plenty, dined with poverty and supped with infamy. Benjamiin Franklin)
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To: RummyChick

YES, but what about the Duke of Earl?


139 posted on 01/15/2016 1:25:36 PM PST by mad_as_he$$ (I think Hillary looks tired, don't you?)
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To: Cboldt

“I couldn’t do the argument justice, and while I wish I had a link or ten to send you to what I consider reliable sources, I can’t even do that.”

Rubio is not a natural born citizen for Constitutional purposes due to his acquisition of U.S. citizenship by the authority of the same U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Act of 1952 applicable to Ted Cruz, but in a different paragraph. See:

66 Stat. Public Law 414 - June 27, 1952

TITLE III - NATIONALITY AND NATURALIZATION

Chapter 1 - Nationality at Birth and by Collective Naturalization

NATIONALS AND CITIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES AT BIRTH

Sec. 301. (a) The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth; . . .

(1) a person born in the United States; and subject to the jurisdiction thereof; . . . .

One of the interesting controversies surrounding this statute concerns its phrase saying: “and subject to the jurisdiction thereof. . . .” Courts previous to the Wong Kim Ark decision often decided a person born in the United States with two alien parents were obligated by their foreign citizenship derived or inherited from their alien parents to share a duty of allegiance to the foreign sovereign as well as the local and temporary allegiance to the United States sovereignty. This circumstance of dual allegiance including a foreign allegiance was sufficient to find the person was not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States and therefore did not acquire U.S. citizenship. Donald Trumps recent remarks about the actual legal status of anchor babies could reopen the debate about the correct application of this restriction due to jurisdiction and allegiance despite immigration and naturalization practices since the Wong Kinm Ark decision (1898).


140 posted on 01/15/2016 1:28:10 PM PST by WhiskeyX
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