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To: John Valentine

Dual Citizenship automatically creates a problem anywhere and any when.

The problem was exposed to all when the “American” journalist was jailed in Iran. He had dual citizenship. That made him subject to all of their rules and laws.

THIS is the consequence of ANY form of dual citizenship. THIS is why and how Natural Born Citizenship stands as it does, it prevents not ONLY problematic issues with loyalty, but ALSO problems with aggressive nations USING that citizenship to control anyone with that dual citizenship.

I’m sorry, but you have overlooked some very IMPORTANT issues.

Ted Cruz *is*, philosophically, the best choice for US President, and I can go with that, with the understanding that the Constitution has *already* been overthrown. However, this does NOT change the fact that under our former Constitution Ted Cruz would *NOT* be a Natural Born Citizen and would *NOT* qualify to be President for that reason.


33 posted on 01/14/2016 11:30:50 AM PST by Maelstrom (To prevent misinterpretation or abuse of the Constitution:The Bill of Rights limits government power)
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To: Maelstrom

I didn’t say that dual citizenship might not create problems. Only that it can’t be allowed to create problems within our own polity.

I said that we can’t control what other countries do. For a gentleman or gentlewoman whose loyalty and duty is demanded by a country like Iran; may I say that I think it very foolish indeed for that person to put himself or herself into Iran’s jurisdiction? It’s asking for trouble. The US government has been warning people about this potential danger for years.

And, let me point out that there is no way for anyone here to prevent Iran from making YOU, me, or Barack Obama, a citizen of Iran tomorrow.

You say that there could be problems with aggressive nations using “dual citizenship” to control anyone with that dual citizenship. Maybe, but then, given that any such nation has the power to declare any one at all as a citizen at any time, that means we are all vulnerable.

Ted Cruz is no more vulnerable to foreign pressures from Canada than Donald Trump is from Great Britain. This is nothing but a canard.

If fact if such pressure were really a worry, Trump’s would be the bigger problem because he has yet to renounce his British dual nationality. Cruz already renounced his Canadian connection.


34 posted on 01/14/2016 2:52:29 PM PST by John Valentine (Deep in the Heart of Texas)
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To: Maelstrom
THIS is the consequence of ANY form of dual citizenship. THIS is why and how Natural Born Citizenship stands as it does, it prevents not ONLY problematic issues with loyalty, but ALSO problems with aggressive nations USING that citizenship to control anyone with that dual citizenship.

I'd like to give a little more attention to this paragraph, for you and other readers because it exemplifies the confused and twisted thinking that comes from wrong ideas about "dual citizenship".

Let's get this fact straight first of all: the United States does not grant anyone dual nationality of a foreign nation. The foreign nation does. And in doing so, they can use any criteria they want to, from the strict to the whimsical. And there is nothing that the United States can or should do about it.

Except, to understand that whatever these foreign nations do, We the People rule here. We enact our own laws. We decide who our citizens are, and we protect them to the best of our ability. We can enact a law that enjoins our courts from recognizing any claims brought within our jurisdiction based on a claim of foreign citizenship. Maybe we already have. That's our sovereign right. We could also enact legislation that declares that we do not and will not recognize any such competing claims on the loyalty of our citizens.

But we need to be clear. No such law would prevent the arrest, trial detention or imprisonment of a US citizen in Iran if Iran deems that person to be one of theirs. Iran controls its own laws and its own actions within its polity. That must be clear to you. If Iran declared you to be a Citizen, no intensity of scorn, no enactment of legislation, no jawboning by the President, and no cries of pain from your relatives will protect you from Iran if you choose to physically go there. Conversely, if you remain within the realm of protection that the US can afford to its citizens, you should have no worries.

You err in thinking that the status of "natural born citizen" will protect you from this sort of predation by an aggressive foreign state.

If Britain were still our enemy, then Donald Trump would be vulnerable to precisely this sort of predation as as result of the British nationality he inherited from his dual-citizen mother.

This would be true despite the fact that under every interpretation of of the meaning of natural born citizen that I am aware of, Donald Trump qualifies. But, none of that has one whit of significance to Great Britain, which, by law, extends its nationality to the offspring of their subjects.

In short, the entire idea of placing dual citizenship at the heart of how we determine who is and who is not a natural born citizenship add nothing of value to the discussion, and adds much confusion and erroneous thinking. We need an approach to this subject that leads to clarity, not confusion and illogic.

On the subject of loyalty, the Framers were concerned about the loyalty of the child. They were not concerned about specious claims to loyalty ginned up by one foreign power or another. Their concern was with the child, and mere dual citizenship was not and could not ever be determinative of the child's loyalty. In many, or even most of the cases the child might not even be aware of the claims upon his loyalty made by a foreign power. I doubt Donald Trump loses sleep over the fact that British law makes him a subject of the crown, nor do I suspect that he harbors a secret loyalty to the homeland of his mother. Nor should you.

35 posted on 01/14/2016 3:50:34 PM PST by John Valentine (Deep in the Heart of Texas)
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