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To: ek_hornbeck; kabar; Cincinna
On the contrary, all too many "conservatives" confuse the distinction between patriotism and nationalism.

"National identity" is ethnic and racial.

Nationalist movements have always been the friend of collectivism, and of the "will of the people"/"national will" overriding individual rights.

Patriotism is based on shared values, not shared blood.

Le Pen's opposition to immigration is based primarily on race, the French people's opposition is based more on values.

57 posted on 12/07/2015 9:06:12 AM PST by wideawake
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To: wideawake; kabar
Patriotism is based on shared values, not shared blood.

European nations are defined by a shared culture and history, not by some nebulous "common values." Nobody knows or cares what "French values" or "German values" are because only politicians and pundits use or allegedly think in those terms. In contrast, French people are fairly well-defined as a cultural, historical, and political entity. This is what Le Pen's party wishes to conserve. The notion that anyone can become a westerner by ordering a Big Mac and putting on a T-shirt with a catchy slogan is a myth peddled by those (again, only politicians and pundits) who believe that nations are really propositions rather than entities with a culture and a history.

To illustrate how absurd propositionalism is: imagine you could put together an exhaustive list of "French values" that define a Frenchman. Now let's take someone in Japan who has never set foot in France and doesn't intend to, but he subscribes to this exhaustive list of "French values." By this definition, is that hypothetical person in Japan now a Frenchman?

58 posted on 12/07/2015 9:32:51 AM PST by ek_hornbeck
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To: wideawake

No it is based on Culture. Islam is a culture incompatible with Judeo-Christian values.


61 posted on 12/07/2015 9:37:14 AM PST by dfwgator
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To: wideawake
Le Pen's opposition to immigration is based primarily on race, the French people's opposition is based more on values.

No, it is based on "nation", having a shared culture, language, and, yes, values too, but it's not just values. An Italian or German or Englishman can be just as white as a Frenchman, but the average Frenchman will not consider them French.

Part of it is pride in the accomplishments of your nation, and attachment to the fellow members of your nation. A Muslim must consider himself part of the Islamic Ummah more than he could consider himself a fellow to Christian French.

67 posted on 12/07/2015 10:04:38 AM PST by PapaBear3625 (Big government is attractive to those who think that THEY will be in control of it.)
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To: wideawake
"National identity" is ethnic and racial.

According to whom? Here is the accepted definition, not the one you make up: a sense of a nation as a cohesive whole, as represented by distinctive traditions, culture, and language.

Nationalist movements have always been the friend of collectivism, and of the "will of the people"/"national will" overriding individual rights.

Was the Declaration of Independence based on patriotism or nationalism?

Patriotism is based on shared values, not shared blood.

The accepted definition of patriotism: devoted love, support, and defense of one's country; national loyalty

Le Pen's opposition to immigration is based primarily on race, the French people's opposition is based more on values.

What race? MLP wants an end to illegal immigration, and a moratorium on legal immigration regardless of race. How is that racist?

Marine Le Pen advocates to "vote for the abolition of the law enabling the regularization of the illegal immigrants". In her view, "this measure corresponds with the interest of France, the respect of its authority and the most elementary justice"

"They don't tell you this but the immigration situation in France is totally out of control," Le Pen said at a meeting to mark the start of France's new political season. "My aim is clear: to stop immigration both legal and illegal."

The FN's programme officially calls for immigration to be limited to 10,000 people per year but Le Pen went further, declaring, "We need national borders for France."

Undocumented immigrants should not receive state-funded medical care and social security payments to asylum-seekers should end, she said.

Repeating a demand she made after the 21 August failed attack on a high-speed train from Belgium to France, she called for "all foreigners on file for links with radical Islamist movements to be deported", adding that "radical mosques" should be closed and their imams be thrown out of the country if they are foreigners.

70 posted on 12/07/2015 11:23:05 AM PST by kabar
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