Posted on 11/18/2015 8:12:10 PM PST by Jim Robinson
http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-myths-arabs-descendants-of-ishmael.htm
Thanks for your Nations thing from Genesis 10. It sounds like Cush and Shem populatated Arabia years and years before Abraham (and Ishmael) were ever around. And Ishmael went there and intermarried with them. As I said, I’m no expert. (I also get the Ismael/Isaac story confused with the earlier(?) story of Enoch(?) and Esau(?) where the mother tricks the blind husband with the fur coat and stuff in granting the first birth-right!)
Anyway - the following may shed some light on the subject (and has the supporting Bible verses).
An excerpt from the above site about the various territorial claims made by Islam.
The Arab Claim to Palestine because they are descendants of Ishmael:
By Robert Morey
The Arabs’ claim to the land of Israel rest entirely on three false assumptions:
1) All Arabs are the descendants of Abraham through Ishmael.
2) Ishmael and his descendants were included in the covenant God made with Abraham.
3) Since the Abrahamic convenant included the land of Israel, the Arabs have a legitimate claim to it.
Historical Facts that refute these Arab claims:
1) According to the Torah, when Abraham left Ur of the Chaldees, he went West to what is now called Israel (Gen. 12 ff.). He became a dweller in tents in that land. It was in Israel that God made a covenant with him for the land in which he was living at that time. It was in Israel that he fathered Isaac, Ishmael, and many other sons and daughters. Isaac was the only son of Abraham chosen by God to be the heir of the covenant. Abraham took Isaac to Mt. Moriah to be offered up as a sacrifice to God.
The Torah is contradicted by Qur’an at nearly every point. According to Surah 2:119-121, Abraham and Ishmael did not dwell in tents in Israel but in the city of Mecca in Arabia. Together they rebuilt the Kabah and placed the black stone in the wall. It was Abraham who started the tradition of an annual pilgrimage to Mecca, throwing stones at the devil, etc. Abraham took Ishmael (not Isaac) to nearby Mt. Mina to offer as a sacrifice to God.
2) Ishmael’s twelve sons were named Nebaioth, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, Mishma, Dumah, Massa, Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah. (Gen. 12:11-16) They intermarried with the local population in North Arabia and produced several nomadic tribes know as the “Ishmaelites.”
3) It was prophesied in the Torah that Ishmael and his family would “live to the East of all his brothers.” (Gen. 16:12) “And they settled from Havilah to Shur which is east of Egypt as one goes toward Assyria.” (Gen 25:18) This broad area is the desert section East of Egypt in Northern Arabia toward the kingdom of the Assyrians.
4) The Ishmaelites are mentioned as a distinct tribe in the Assyrian records. They later intermarried with and were absorbed by the Midianites and other local tribes. In Gen. 37:25-28; 39:1, the Ishmaelites are called the Midianites and in Judges 8:22-24 cf. 7:1f, the Midianites are called the Ishmaelites. The identification cannot be made any stronger.
5) Arabia was already populated by the descendants of Cush and Shem long before Abraham or Ishmael were born (Gen. 10:7). Their cities and temples have been well documented by archeologists.
6) If all the Arab people descended from Ishmael as Muhammad claimed, where did all the original Arabs go? What happened to them? Who did Ishmael marry if the Arabs did not already exist? If Arabia was unpopulated, who built Mecca? Since he lived there, obviously it existed before he was born. The facts speak for themselves. The Arab people existed before, during, and after Ishmael started roaming the wilderness of North Arabia.
7) The descendants of Ishmael were scattered in Northern Arabia from the wilderness of Shur to the ancient city of Havilah. They were absorbed by the local tribes such as the Midianites (Gen. 37:25-28; 39:1; Judges 8:24). There is no historical or archeological evidence that Ishmael went south to Mecca and became the “Father” of the Arab race. Some modern Arab scholars admit that before Muhammad, Qahtan was said to be the “Father” of the Arab people, not Ishmael.
8) The Abrahamic Covenant was given only to Isaac and to his descendants. Ishmael and the other sons of Abraham were explicitly excluded by God from having any part of the covenant made with Abraham. (Gen. 18:18-21)
Therefore the descendants of Ishmael and the other sons of Abraham do not have any claim to the land of Israel because they are not included in the covenant God made with Abraham. Only the Jews have any claim to the land of Israel.
And all of those millions of devout Christians and Jews in those lands just voluntarily converted to Islam? Guess Obama expects us to likewise?
Aye, yi, yi. Helluva way to live. In deathly fear of you own government, your own religious leaders... and your own family. Wouldn’t it be un-American to expect people to live like this?
Wow, youse fast ;)
I’m shaking the rafters of memory here, but if I’m not mistaken you can follow the migrations of the various tribes and sub-tribes by means of a simple concordance well into the rest of the OT.
Also, do not assume everything is straightforward. For example, Cush was located in modern day Libya. ... definitely not a part of the Arabian Peninsula. The Bible names lands for who settled there.
If I recall correctly, the true Arabs were from a line called Dedan, thus follows the biblical nomenclature for Arabia.
If you want all the I-s dotted, and T-s crossed, I’d recommend a multi-source study centering around the table of nations as some scholars are famous for their goofs, which of course you’ll never learn by reading only their missives.
How can Obama consider these people as potential Americans? How can they .possibly adapt to our Judeo-Christian society?
That will never fly in our society or does Obama expect us to adapt?
Wouldn’t this require major changes to our laws and our constitution (which Americans would never agree to)? Wouldn’t a president planning these things be impeached?
That’ll never fly here under our constitution. Shouldn’t Obama’s party and advisers advise him to forget such foolishness?
I guess what I was trying to get to in saying Arabs are muslims, is that there are lots of Arabs that are Christian, or other sects, that are not caught up in Islam. And that Mohammad just made up his religion.
Will Obama and his followers expect Americans to lie down be slaughtered like the Armenian Christians? How do they expect to disarm us without getting themselves blasted off the face of the earth?
I’m beginning to wonder if Obama and the democrats have really thought this through?
Well, I pray we can hold them off until then.
I’m beginning to understand? How can Obama and the democrats ever believe that we would stand for these people to immigrate into our midst? Are they really stupid enough to believe it would work?
Amen. I thought these things were understood and pretty much settled a century and a half ago? Guess thry think we’ve forgotten?
See my FR homepage.
As another FReeper put it, while not all Muslims are terrorists, the founder of Islam, Mohammad, WAS a terrorist. He was a rapist, robber, murderer, child molester, and liar. (All documented with references to Islamic scripture on my homepage)
How could anything good come from a movement founded by a fundamentally evil man?
And Obama thinks we won’t want to stay with our old ways? Does he and his leftist moron followers expect we’ll lay down for a new world order? Does he know nothing of American history and our fighting spirit? Can he even spell moran?
Now that’s what I was thinking. Where are our elected reps on this?
Oh, I agree with you; islam was contrived from whole cloth, but that point is moot now, no?
It is a matter of historical record that muslims conquered all the formerly Christian nations in the area. And while Christians have and do exist in that region, Lebanon is unfortunately the rule rather than the exception to muslim methodologies.
Moreover, the existence of other sects does not mean those sects are not in "submission" to islam. Indeed, islam does not require conversion of its subject peoples: only acknowledgement of their defeated status, and payment of the jizya tax as dhimmnis.
Sounds to me like we’re going to be in for interesting times. Can Obama sense the wrath of we the people building up?
The Hadith says it’s OK for a Muslim to lie to an infidel, especially if the lie advances Islam. Thus, they will lie to your face about what their scripture says, if the truth would make non-Muslims hostile to Islam.
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