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To: imardmd1
The man as described in Romans 7 is not saved. Period.

Whaaaaaaaaaat???

Your discourse lacks consensus. Maybe you should read ALL of Paul's extant letters, then get do it again! Obviously this must be Rome's interpretation. It has nothing to do with the reality of Christian life. Indeed, it reveals a complete disconnect from the role Jesus plays in our lives. It is a classic cultic response.

15 Reasons Why Jesus Came

Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners.
1 Timothy 1:15, "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief."

Jesus Christ came into the world to call sinners to repentance.
Mark 2:17, "When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Jesus Christ came into the world to seek and save the lost. Luke 19:10, "For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost."

Jesus came into the world to demonstrate the true purpose of life and give Himself a ransom.
Matthew 20:28, "Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many."

Jesus Christ came into the world to be a King and bear witness to the truth.
John 18:37, "Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice."

Jesus Christ came into the world to do the Will of His Father.
John 6:38, "For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me."

Jesus Christ came into the world to be a Light in the world.
John 12:46, "I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness."

Jesus Christ came into the world that men might have the Abundant Life.
ohn 10:10, "I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly."

Jesus Christ came into the world to Judge the world.
John 9:39, "And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind."

Jesus Christ came into the world to Proclaim or preach the Good News about the Kingdom of God.
Mark 1:38, "And he said unto them, Let us go into the next towns, that I may preach there also: for therefore came I forth."

Jesus Christ came into the world to die on the cross.
John 12:27, "Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour."

Jesus Christ came into the world to fulfil the law.
Matthew 5:17, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."

esus Christ came into the world to be a Divider of men.
Matthew 10:34, 35, "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law." (Christ makes it necessary to choose between relatives and the truth. This choice often causes division.)

Jesus Christ came into the world as a demonstration of God's Love.
1 John 4:10, "Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins."

Jesus Christ came into the world because the Father sent Him.
John 20:21, "Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you."
a. The Father SENT Jesus to be the Propitiation (atonement) for our sins.
1 John 4:10, "Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins."
b. The Father SENT Jesus and gave Jesus as the Saviour of the world.
John 3:16-18, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
c. The Father SENT Jesus to bless us by turning us from our iniquities.
Acts 3:26, "Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities."
d. The Father SENT His Son to redeem us from the curse of the law.
Galatians 4:4-5, "But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons."
e. God SENT His Son to make possible a new power in the hearts of men, a power to enable him to fulfil the righteousness of the law.
Romans 8:3,4, "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

- http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/why_jesus.html-

138 posted on 09/09/2015 3:15:00 PM PDT by WVKayaker (On Scale of 1 to 5 Palins, How Likely Is Media Assault on Each GOP Candidate?)
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To: WVKayaker
Read the last verse of that chapter, that Jesus Christ saved Paul by grace through faith, and not of his own works, which is what the beginning of the chapter is all about. He cannot save himself by "obeying" the law with his own mind.

The consensus of reliable commentators is with my analysis:

Adam Clarke:

Verse 14: " 'But I am carnal, sold under sin' - This was probably, in the apostle’s letter, the beginning of a new paragraph. I believe it is agreed, on all hands, that the apostle is here demonstrating the insufficiency of the law in opposition to the Gospel. That by the former is the knowledge, by the latter the cure, of sin. Therefore by I here he cannot mean himself, nor any Christian believer: if the contrary could be proved, the argument of the apostle would go to demonstrate the insufficiency of the Gospel as well as the law."

Verse 24: "We may naturally suppose that the cry of such a person would be, Wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from this dead body? And how well does this apply to the case of the person to whom the apostle refers! A body - a whole mass of sin and corruption, was bound to his soul with chains which he could not break; and the mortal contagion, transfused through his whole nature, was pressing him down to the bitter pains of an eternal death. He now finds that the law can afford him no deliverance; and he despairs of help from any human being; but while he is emitting his last, or almost expiring groan, the redemption by Christ Jesus is proclaimed to him; and, if the apostle refers to his own case, Ananias unexpectedly accosts him with - Brother Saul! the Lord Jesus, who appeared unto thee in the way, hath sent me unto thee, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. He sees then an open door of hope, and he immediately, though but in the prospect of this deliverance, returns God thanks for the well-grounded hope which he has of salvation, through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Marvin Vincent's Word Studies, Verse 14: Carnal (σάρκινος)

Lit., made of flesh. A very strong expression. “This unspiritual, material, phenomenal nature” so dominates the unrenewed man that he is described as consisting of flesh. Others read σαρκικός having the nature of flesh.

Sold under sin

As a slave. The preposition ὑπό under, with the accusative, implies direction; so as to be under the power of.

John N. Darby (re verses 4 and 14)

"Such then was the effect of the law, that first husband, seeing sin existed in man. To bring this out more plainly, the apostle communicates his spiritual apprehension of the experience of a soul under the law.
We must remark here, that the subject treated of is not the fact of the conflict between the two natures, but the effect of the law, supposing the will to be renewed, and the law to have obtained the suffrage of the conscience and to be the object of the heart's affections — a heart which recognises the spirituality of the law. This is neither the knowledge of grace, nor of the Saviour Christ, nor of the Spirit."

Matthew Henry (re verse 24)

"The law may make a man cry out, O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me? and yet leave him thus fettered and captivated, as being too weak to deliver him (Rom_8:3), give him a spirit of bondage to fear, Rom_8:15. Now a soul advanced thus far by the law is in a fair way towards a state of liberty by Christ, though many rest here and go no further. Felix trembled, but never came to Christ. It is possible for a man to go to hell with his eyes open (Num_24:3, Num_24:4), illuminated with common convictions, and to carry about with him a self-accusing conscience, even in the service of the devil."

==========

Albert Barnes doesn't like this at all, but is wrong in my own opinion; and falling between these is

Jamieson, Fausset, Brown:

Romans 7:14
For we know that the law is spiritual — in its demands.
but I am carnal — fleshly (see on Rom. 7:5), and as such, incapable of yielding spiritual obedience.
sold under sin — enslaved to it. The “I” here, though of course not the regenerate, is neither the unregenerate, but the sinful principle of the renewed man, as is expressly stated in Rom. 7:18.

======

I believe Matthew Henry says it well, the idea that a man may be renewed in mind yet not saved; that is, a convert as Peter was before Pentecost, but not reborn in the Spirit, as Peter and some 119 other converts were when the Holy Ghost came upon and into them, on Pentecost, a gracious gift of New Testament salvation that cancels the penalty of sin, negates the power of sin to compel the regenerate believer-disciple, makes one abhor the preference of sin, and at physical death removes even the presence of sin so that one can enter the joy of God's habitation.

You can't have it both ways at once -- freed from the power of sin yet sold out to sin. Impossible.

Of course, there is an ongoing debate about this, but like the Beloved John and Apostle Paul, I don't think one can habitually ignore the Spirit's call to confess and abandon a sinful behavior without receiving chastening from the Father, if one is His born-again child (1 Jn. 1:9. Heb. 12:8,11). Where is the chastening of the Father mentioned in Romans 7?

You might want to note that the Holy Spirit is only mentioned twice in Romans before 8:1, but profusely thence forward. You cannot say that the human of Chapter 7 was controlled by the Holy Spirit at all, or was even indwelt by Him.

145 posted on 09/09/2015 9:00:58 PM PDT by imardmd1 (Fiat Lux)
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