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To: Publius; Alamo-Girl; marron; caww; hosepipe; YHAOS; Jacquerie
The State Ratifying Convention Method has only been used twice: once to ratify the Constitution, and once to ratify the 21st Amendment repealing Prohibition.

Thank you for that correction, Publius — I completely "forgot" that the 21st Amendment was brought and ratified by the COS method of Article V. Even though I have Ken Burns' excellent Prohibition on DVD, and should have recalled this fact....

It's very interesting that the only Amendment that was ever repealed — the 18th, Prohibition — was repealed via a COS. That is heartening. It's past time to repeal the 17th; but it seems it would require an Article V COS to do it, for we cannot reasonably expect that Congress would ever do it. They like the status quo.

Thank you, Publius, for your highly informative essay/post, and for the great links! MUCH appreciated!

88 posted on 07/02/2015 9:12:34 AM PDT by betty boop (Science deserves all the love we can give it, but that love should not be blind. — NR)
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To: betty boop
No, the 21st Amendment was not ratified by a Convention of the States. It was ratified by state ratifying conventions, which is a totally different animal.

The first time we used state ratifying conventions was to ratify the Constitution itself. Hamilton and Madison wanted it understood that the Articles of Confederation and the Constitution were two different legal concepts. The Articles were a treaty between sovereign powers, governed under treaty law. The Constitution was a compact, or contract, between the Whole People and the federal government they created. The states were the agents of the Whole People, not the actual parties to the contract. As such, the Constitution was governed under contract law, not treaty law.

To help make this clearer, I'll provide you with two links to Publius Essays I wrote for the purpose of FReeper education.

Federalism: Yesterday and Today is a 10,000 word essay on the history of federalism from the Founding through the present.

Because I slighted the present era, I wrote a short sequel, Reflections on the 82nd Anniversary of the New Deal, that delved into the New Deal-to-the-present period. Some day, I'll merge the two essays.

The Articles had never been presented to the people for a vote, and Madison and Hamilton wanted a vote of the people to emphasize the contract nature of the Constitution. The Federalist Papers were written by Madison, Hamilton and Jay to convince New York's ratifying convention to ratify the document.

The decision to use state ratifying conventions to ratify the 21st Amendment came from a completely different problem.

The bootlegging industry had its tentacles deeply embedded into both government and law enforcement at the local, county, state and federal levels. Congress feared that if the ratification of the 21st Amendment were left to the state legislatures, the congressional seven year window for ratification would expire and repeal would die. While the people overwhelmingly wanted repeal, law enforcement and government wanted Prohibition to remain for its ability to provide bribes and payoffs. This is why Congress chose the state ratifying convention method.

The states decided how ratifying conventions would be elected by the voters, and these conventions met, debated, voted to ratify or not to ratify, and then adjourned. It took a mere nine months for the 21st to be ratified by this method.

State ratifying conventions and a Convention of the States are two completely different things.

91 posted on 07/02/2015 9:59:00 AM PDT by Publius ("Who is John Galt?" by Billthedrill and Publius now available at Amazon.)
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To: betty boop; Publius
There is a difference between the Article V proposing commotion of states, and the state convention ratifying method. The former is a single convention where all states participate; the latter are separate conventions within each state to ratify an amendment.

One question regarding the state ratifying convention method: since each proposed amendment stands on its own for ratification, if Congress calls for the ratifying convention method is that one convention per amendment or one convention that handles all amendments?

What is the sequence?

1. States file application for convention.
2. Congress calls Convention.
3. Convention passes an amendment.
4. Congress chooses method of ratification.
5. Convention passes an amendment.
6. Congress chooses method of ratification.

Or

1. States file application for convention.
2. Congress calls Convention.
3. Congress chooses method of ratification.
4. Convention passes an amendment.
5. Convention passes an amendment.

Or

1. States file application for convention.
2. Congress calls Convention.
3. Convention passes an amendment.
4. Convention passes an amendment.
5. Convention adjourns and reports out.
6. Congress chooses method of ratification for each amendment.

I think it's the third. If the convention is held in secret closed session, Congress has to wait until the convention reports out to choose the ratification method.

-PJ

92 posted on 07/02/2015 10:02:13 AM PDT by Political Junkie Too (If you are the Posterity of We the People, then you are a Natural Born Citizen.)
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