Posted on 06/29/2015 3:05:24 PM PDT by Hojczyk
In fact, European leaders are finally beginning to reveal the true nature of the ongoing debt dispute, and the answer is not pleasant: it is about power and democracy much more than money and economics.
Of course, the economics behind the program that the “troika” (the European Commission, the European Central Bank, and the International Monetary Fund) foisted on Greece five years ago has been abysmal, resulting in a 25% decline in the country’s gross domestic product.
I can think of no depression, ever, that has been so deliberate and had such catastrophic consequences: Greece’s rate of youth unemployment, for example, now exceeds 60%.
It is hard to advise Greeks how to vote on July 5. Neither alternative — approval or rejection of the troika’s terms — will be easy, and both carry huge risks.
A “yes” vote would mean depression almost without end. Perhaps a depleted country — one that has sold off all of its assets, and whose bright young people have emigrated — might finally get debt forgiveness; perhaps, having shriveled into a middle-income economy, Greece might finally be able to get assistance from the World Bank. All of this might happen in the next decade, or perhaps in the decade after that.
By contrast, a “no” vote would at least open the possibility that Greece, with its strong democratic tradition, might grasp its destiny in its own hands. Greeks might gain the opportunity to shape a future that, though perhaps not as prosperous as the past, is far more hopeful than the unconscionable torture of the present.
(Excerpt) Read more at marketwatch.com ...
Yeah, if other Europeans don’t keep lending billions of dollars to Greece, even though they know it will never be repaid, they’re Waging War On Democracy.
The choice of one type of colored paper (Euro) vs. the other type (Drachmas) is not as important as choice of one type of a Greek (a hard worker) vs. another (a lazy 35 y/o retiree from a government job.) The latter type will not succeed even in the most favorable business environment.
I know what you mean, but do not think the EU is benevolent in all this.
Yes, the Greeks spent themselves into oblivion by embracing the socialist state.
But, giving into the socialist EU is not better than falling into bed with the USSR.
I never said the EU was being benevolent, or not being benevolent, in anything.
from this far away vantage (and perhaps a serious lack of factual information), it would seem likely that Greece could do a whole lot better reasserting its own sovereignty and currency
at least, its fate would no longer be tied to how effectively its pols can beg foreigners for concessions
Didn’t mean to accuse you, Tom.
Do not take it personally.
Where does this 35 year old retirement age come from, some German Nazi propaganda site or just some WASP right winger bilge water data bank? The retirement age in Greece is 67 as of this year. Last year it was 66.
And in 2013 it was 57, right? Nice try.
35 is still a lie. Why do you post lies? What’s in it for you or FR?
Well, how about this article, for example, written in Dec. 2014:
On Wednesday, Greek Labor Minister Yiannis Vroutsis presented data to the parliament, explaining that almost 75% of Greek pensioners are trying to secure their early retirement through legal provisions that allow them to stop working before the age of 61.“In the public sector, 7.91% of pensioners retire between the ages of 26 and 50, 23.64% between 51 and 55, and 43.53% between 56 and 61. In IKA, 4.44% of pensioners retire between the ages of 26 and 50, 12.83% retire between 51 and 55, and 58.61% retire between 56 and 61. Meanwhile, in the so-called healthy funds, 91.6% of people retire before the national retirement age limit,” Vroutsis said.
As you can see, the article claims that despite the high national retirement age limit many people retire much earlier - sometimes as early as being of ripe old age of 26. Is the article wrong?
The article isn’t wrong. It’s misleading. The retirements under 50 are akin to social security disability pensions and some military pensions. The early retirements for 50-61 are for various categories, the biggest being women with three children under 18 and widows/widowers and of course the military.
Why did you say the retirement age in Greece is 35? As I asked, what’s in it for you? Are you a partisan of the Germans?
It's a number that is well within the range. The article may be misleading, but if so it did its job, and I used those numbers. Millions more were similarly informed (or misinformed.)
I do not support Germany here; I am not even sure who to root for. One relevant question here is very simple: WHY is Greece unable to pay its debts? Insifficient productivity of workers, compared to their pay, is one possible answer. Are there other reasons? If there are, perhaps it would be useful if those who know clearly enumerate them. Many people who post on FR have never seen Greece, don't speak the language, and have to depend on articles like the one that you identified as misleading. The article mentions that 3/4 of retirees retired before the legal age - and you list some possible reasons for that. If so, is it because there are too many disabled public workers, or wounded soldiers, or mothers in age 50-61 with "young" (?????) children under 18 (??????) How many workers in other countries are allowed to retire and to draw pensions in similar circumstances? What's the point of a high retirement age if the law is full of loopholes and exceptions that 3/4 of the population qualifies for?
All those are interesting questions that directly relate to the problem at hand. As I said earlier, Greece can fix their economy only if it has workers who are eager to work, produce goods, sell those goods abroad and to each other, and create wealth. The opposite to that is drawing pension and sitting on a couch. What is the ratio between these two polar groups? How many workers are banging on the gates of factories and demanding to let them in, to work from 9 to 5 for a modest compensation, competing with Chinese?
Let me reiterate: I do not pretend to know specifics. Perhaps you do - and then please explain what is the lay of the land from your vantage point. There are not too many dogmatics on FR; but correct information is always in short supply.
Here’s another article, originally from Market Watch which explains much of what is happening:
http://www.pappaspost.com/marketwatch-opinion-europes-secret-fear-about-greece
Let me add a few personal observations. Corruption, official and otherwise became endemic among the political elites in Greece by about, say’ 1990. It made and makes no difference which party we are talking about, PASOK or Nea Dimokratia. Every service in the Greek governments from Athens down to the local level were for sale. Development costs could triple because of all the “tips” and “envelopes” government officials and politicians demanded and got. A few families, maybe as many as 25-30, really ran the government. A substantial percentage of money from the EU which the Greek governments borrowed for, say’ roads or other infrastructure projects ended up in the pockets of these families. Some was used to curry favor with the population, the rest they just kept. The biggest offenders, unfortunately, were the leaders of ND, the conservative party. They were astonishing crooks. PASOK was not much better, but they were better. BTW, the EU bankers and the bureaucrats in Brussels and politicians in, say, Germany and France were all complicit in what was going on. They were making money off Greek loans like there was no tomorrow.
Remember that Greece is a small country with a small GDP. Thievery and corruption on the scale of the last 20 years or so simply bankrupted the country.
Other things have been going on, but in a nutshell, the foregoing is what happened.
Tesekkür ederiz Arkadaslerim.
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