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Posted on 04/19/2015 1:20:02 PM PDT by SoConPubbie
Tuck Furkey.
I’m in agreement with you. While the recognition of the genocide is an important issue in and of itself, I think the Senator’s comments should also be looked at as reflective of the larger systemic persecution of Christians both then and now, and of the fact that is becoming politically correct and widely ignored/accepted.
Nice.
There are reasons the U.S. govt has avoided wading into this century old debate. I’ve pointed them out. Look up Incirlik. It’s not a minor base. It’s a major MAC hub. Our foreign policy makers for two generations have decided it’s a strategic asset worth preserving.
Nobody is denying that the Genocide happened. How much weight you give to something three generations old is a matter for reasonable debate. Name call if you like. The prevailing opinion has stood a long test of time.
Even so, I have suggested that recent changes in Turkey may indeed now make it worth reconsidering that policy. To me the moral issue of current lives that could be saved is not minor:
I’ve been on those front lines. I’ve lost friends on them. My son has been on them.
I would not trade the life of a single US soldier or citizen to accuse dead people of their crimes. That’s just me.
The only issue for me is those lives are in the balance. In the past, that has been true, hence our policy. Given Turkey’s change over the last two decades, whether that remains true is rationally debatable.
When I was stationed there, while this was in issue, I was accused multiple times to my face of defaming Ataturk because of the Senate resolution. Rightly or wrongly, that is the perception on the ground.
You are wrong. Turkey would close Incirlik over the issue. The threat was real then and now. It’s in their nature to take such things personally and put emotions over economics. Besides, it would be to Erdogen’s advantage to have a major reason to malign America. You’ve misjudged the nature of the Turks to suggest they would put their economic interests first.
Should we care? Now that’s the real issue. Maybe we shouldn’t.
That base served and serves a vital interest. Confronting present day Turkey might just be an equally compelling interest.
Either way, calling out the dead for their crimes isn’t some great moral deed. If doing so confronts present day Turkey in a way in which they should be confronted, and if that imperative outweighs the strategic advantage of a major forward base, bring it on.
But if one American life is saved otherwise, those murderers can rot in hell. It’s not like anything we say will change that outcome anyway.
> You are wrong. Turkey would close Incirlik over the issue. The threat was real then and now.
You’ve misjudged the nature of the problem. A US pullout from Turkey has NOTHING TO DO with economic issues, it’s entirely about Turkish security.
And who cares? If the Turks want to be taken over by the Russians, with the ever-willing help of the Iranians, they could hardly choose a quicker way. In thirty years we could say, that happened way back in the teens.
> When I was stationed there, while this was in issue, I was accused multiple times to my face of defaming Ataturk because of the Senate resolution. Rightly or wrongly, that is the perception on the ground.
Besides the fact that it was anecdotal experience, and may or may not fit into the milieu of the Islamic world’s inability (like the left) to embrace history, who cares? That happened way back in the 1980s.
At least the Russians would restore Constantinople.
No, but nice try.
http://www.armenian-genocide.org/kemal.html
Armenian-Genocide.org refers to Ataturk as “The Consummator of the Genecide”, that’s a tad more than my anecdotal report.
Turkey might have been too afraid of Russia in 1980 to wave off American presence, but this ain’t 1980. If anything, you’re seeing an alignment of Sunni vs Shia at the State level and Turkey will join the coalition to take on Iran. Muslims make hate Americans, but the inbred infidels are the worst kind.
Turkey controls the straits to the Black Sea. Barring an outright invasion, they hold a fairly decent trump card. All the more enticing for Russia, maybe. But Russia has its own problems and $50/bbl oil does limit how many fronts you can stake out at one time, especially when you’re an oil/gas economy.
The bigger issue with Russia is pipeline access and those fights will happen regardless American presence.
Again, you don’t understand the mindset of Turkey if you think they won’t overreact. Keep in mind, the goal of officially recognizing the genocide is to provoke a reaction. This isnt about the dead; they’re dead. It’s about Turkey refusing to own something that happened three generations ago. It’s about provoking a fight over it.
It’s not about the truth. The truth is the truth, whether we declare it or they do. Or not.
And Turkey is never going to admit the truth. So. Do we force the issue?
Everything has a cost. What has kept the status quo over the last two generations of American foreign policy is that the potential strategic advantage of Incirlik has been deemed not worth picking this fight.
Has that changed? Maybe it has.
The 1.5 million Armenians were killed by the Ottomans. Years later, after the Ottoman Empire was devolved and under Ataturk, the Democratic Republic of Armenia tried to secede from Turkey, and he defeated armed Armenians, killing thousands both before and after the battle. Turkey was given cash and arms by the USSR in order to accomplish this, as part of the Armenian population (the area now an independent nation) was under Soviet rule.
Turkey’s control over the strait means, if Russia wants it, it will take it, just as it is trying to conquer Ukraine, just as it invaded the Republic of Georgia, and so for that matter it invaded and reoccupied (through a puppet regime) Chechnya. The last thing Turkey would want is a US pullout, because Russia’s no less likely to invade regardless of the price of crude oil and methane.
Since the US Congress has already defined the Armenian Genocide as a genocide, twice in the past forty years — but only when there was a Republican President and a Demagogic majority in Congress — it’s politically smart of Ted Cruz to take this stand now.
As far as whether the Turks will be offended, well, boo hoo. You claim that there will be a fight over it — where? Declaration of war? Bloodshed? That claim is just ridiculous.
Turkey has common interests with Iran — pipelines, Kurdistan (which btw, has acknowledged and repudiated the Armenian genocide and their ancestors’ role in it), and the inconveniencing of Saudi Arabia. Both countries (along with Zero and company) supported Morsi’s rise in Egypt, and pissed and moaned about his removal. Erdogan’s recent complaint that Iran must not get the Bomb hasn’t translated into rapprochement with Israel, or with NATO, or with the US. Turkey is an enemy nation now, but one that remains dependent on the US for its continued existence.
Well for good for Sen. Ted, he did the right thing.
TRUTH has to be told, regardless of Turkey liking it or not.
Yet Pope Francis in the last week or two declared it was a genocide. Got to give him credit for being gutsy.
It’s not a gutsy call.
It was a genocide.
And the Pope doesn’t have a major Military Airlift Command base in Turkey he’s trying to protect.
It’s not all that gutsy a call for Sen. Cruz, either. It’s completely consistent with the direction of his campaign. In fact, I applaud him for his consistency.
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