Go Ugly Early!
Or, ask the boots-on-the-ground guys what aircraft THEY want backing them up: 
Posted on 04/09/2015 10:24:33 PM PDT by sukhoi-30mki
It’s wrong to compare the F-35 with any other asset that was designed to perform a specific mission: this is, in simple words, what a U.S. F-35 pilot said in an interview he gave to the Danish website focusing on military topics Krigeren.
Interviewed at Luke Air Force Base, by Christian Sundsdal, Maj. John Wilson, an F-35 pilot with an F-16 background clearly explained something that is quite obvious to everyone: an A-10 Thunderbolt II will always be better in CAS than the F-35 because it was designed to perform that kind of mission. Similarly, an F-22 will always be better than the JSF in air-to-air combat, because it was designed for that role. However, the F-35 is better in all the other missions.
For sure, aircraft designed for a specific role are going to be more effective in that one than other multi-role platforms. The problem in this case is that the F-35 is going to replace these assets, even though many believe this is not cost-effective, and could even cost some human lives as far as CAS missions, with Troops in Contact is concerned.
Furthermore, according to Wilson, once all the limitations are removed and it can carry weapons, the F-35 will be as capable as the F-16 in the CAS role.
According to Wilson, the majority of CAS missions that have been flown in Iraq, Afghanistan or elsewhere, were flown by Predators, F-15E Strike Eagles, F-16s and F-18s.
“The A-10s make up a very small percentage [and the fact that] every JTAC or guy on the ground that has been saved, has been saved by an A-10, that’s just not true” Wilson says.
“If the guys on the ground are concerned about that…I’d say they shouldn’t be. They should only be concerned that the pilots of whatever aircraft it is, is properly trained and doing his job, dropping the right bomb, on the right target, at the right time.”
Wilson admits the aircraft is expensive, but he says that maintaining several different types in service is even more costly.
Your comments make the all too common mistake of assuming the retirement of the A-10 is supposed to have something to do with its suitability for the Close Air Support (CAS) mission it was designed for, when the retirement of the A-10 has nothing to do with its suitability. The A-10 is being retired because the Congress is not appropriating enough money to pay for the continued combat air support maintenance necessary to continue operating the inventory of A-10 aircraft. The Air Force has been given orders to bring the F-35 aircraft into operational readiness, and the only way they currently fund the maintenance personnel and operations is to retire a choice of the A-10 fleet, the B-1 strategic bomber fleet, much of the other little remaining strategic bomber fleet, a major part of the already overtasked air refueling aircraft, or the overworked transport aircraft. The A-10 is being chosen from those alternatives because the other alternatives are even more damaging than the damage caused by the loss of the A-10 aircraft. If you want to keep the A-10, you must convince Congress to fund the necessary pilots, combat air support maintenance, and other costs for the new F-35 squadrons without defunding the A-10, B-1, B-52, and other existing squadrons. It has nothing to do with the value and worth of the A-10. It has everything to do with not having enough money to keep the A-10 and the other squadrons at the same time.
The big wings on the A-10 are responsible for its high lift at low speed, necessary to carry big ordinance, ammo, an ample fuel supply, and an armored cockpit. The big control surfaces in the tail ensure stability and low-speed maneuverability, essential for its close-air-support mission. The F-117 with its faceted flying-wing shape is so inherently unstable it requires a computer to manage thrust and control surfaces just to keep the thing in the air, which makes it completely fly-by-wire... the A-10, on the other hand, actually has manual (non-power-assisted) capability redundant to its hydraulic power-assisted flight controls, meaning a pilot can lose ALL power assist to the ailerons and tail and still fly home and land the plane. This has happened in combat.
The shape of the aircraft is important; it's built that way for reasons, and those reasons make it as effective as it is.
“I’ve never understood why they just don’t let the Army fly their own A-10s. They’d do a better job of CAS anyway.”
It is already problematic enough to coordinate an air force, a naval air force, and foreign air forces in the same theater of operations without committing fratricide and interfering with each others integrated operations planning. Secondly, the Army is having the same kind of budget problems as the Air Force and has already said they cannot even consider assuming the A-10 and its CAS mission. Keeping the A-10 in its CAS mission with the Air Force is very simple. All you have to do is compel Congress to fund the A-10 without defunding any of the other Air Force missions who were the alternatives to cutting the A-10: the B-1 strategic bomber fleet, the B-52 bomber fleet, the air refueling tankers, the air transport squadrons, the early warning air control aircraft, etc. Congress has dictated something has to be cut from the Air Force budget to free up funding for the F-35. So, either get more funding or choose which air squadrons are going to be retired.
“Don’t replace the A-10 until there is an A-11.”
That’s easy, so long as you can compel Congress to fund the A-10, the F-35, and all of the other present squadrons.
Seems to me like the F-35 is actually the problem. We could have continued with upgrades to the F-18 series and got the job done.
‘The A-10 was highly fear by the Russian military and it has proven itself in combat.’
Not at all. A-10 is not absolutely useless in nation-state warfare against near pear opponent but it would suffer enormous losses against any force which has either air force of its own or/and relevant air defences.
It is one thing to go against camel jockeys armed with rifles and RPGs, but now imagine doing a job opposing hundreds of trained troops with manpads, 23mm anti-air artillery and dozens of theater defence SAMs. Not to mention even a Vietnam era fighter jet would easily shoot down as many A-10s as it would be possible considering a number of missiles and cannon shells available.
It would be a fish in a barrel situation and a A-10 pilot would be that fish.
I served with Marines who were in Korea. Their major complaint about CAS was the AD Skyraiders would come back with telephone wires wrapped around the wings or the windshields were caked with mud.
“AF knows now grunts. Not personally.”
That is a load of BS. The U.S. Army Air Forces adopted the British practice of using forward air controllers during the WWII invasion at Salerno. Gen. Patton went on to have his Third Army perfect the CAS mission with the USAAF Ninth Tactical Air Force after D-Day. The built upon the concept in Korea and Vietnam. See for example:
In 1967, a group of combat-experienced fighter pilot volunteers were brought together in South Viet Nam to form a top secret squadron with a now-famous callsign — MISTY. They were stationed first at Phu Cat Air Base, then in 1969, they moved to Tuy Hoa Air Base. Their mission was to fly fast and low over enemy territory, armed with only their cannons and marking rockets... so low that they could see the targets... SAMs, AAA sites, trucks, bridges, boats, bulldozers... whatever. Their goal was straightforward: disrupt the transfer of enemy supplies and equipment down the Ho Chi Minh trail. When a Misty located one or more of these targets, he directed Air Force and Navy fighter strikes against them. Mistys flew the two-seat version of the Super Sabre, the F-100F, and although they flew fast (350 to 550 MPH), and they continually jinked (i.e., changed direction) to spoil the enemy’s prediction of where to aim, still, 28% of the Misty pilots were shot down during the three years they were active. Their first commander, Colonel Bud Day, was one of those shot down, and he became a POW in the Hanoi Hilton. Those who survived went on to important positions, including two Air Force Chiefs of Staff, seven general officers, two astronauts, numerous industry CEOs, and the first man to fly around the world unrefueled in a light aircraft.
http://www.mistyvietnam.com/
Play close attention to those Misty casualties and then bad mouth those Air Force pilots.
It won’t do you any good to try and claim things are all different now, because they are not. Just look at the histories of the Air Force TASS squadrons. Try handing out over enemy territory in a low and slow flying Air Force Cessna on a FAC (Forward Air Controller) mission.
Also don’t forget that Air Force FACs and combat air weathermen travel wherever the Army goes on the ground and in the air. Do not disregard how many of the SOF missions behind enemy lines is to provide the security for Air Force FACs and/or combat air weathermen. Whenever and wherever the XVIII Abn Corps, 82nd Abn, and 101st Abn go, the Air Force FACs and air weathermen go with them, including Air Force pilots performing the FAC assignment.
The problem here is with the Congress not appropriating the funding necessary for the Army, Navy, and Air Force to keep all of the combat branches adequately funded.
“Seems to me like the F-35 is actually the problem. We could have continued with upgrades to the F-18 series and got the job done.”
We could do a lot of things, but Congress is responsible for the appropriations for the F-35 and all of the other missions. Don’t forget how the Congress has reduced the number of combatant warships to the fewest number since before the First World War.
Note, the F-18 in any incarnation cannot provide the USMC with a replacement for the Harrier.
The Michigan Air National Guard has the A-10. Retiring the A-10 would put Selfridge ANGB on a fast track to closure.
I think part of the motivation to retire the A-10 is that it can lead to the closure of entire bases and that’s what Obama likes. Not only that, the entire eastern boundary of Selfridge Air National Guard Base is situated on the western shore of beautiful Lake St. Clair- Great waterfront location for new condo developments, marinas, restaurants...There’s already an 18-hole golf course with clubhouse bar and restaurant on the property, so why not turn it into a 21st Century waterfront maritime community complete with airstrip and aviation facilities for anything but military aviation.
Developers would probably make some gesture in recognition of the historical significance of the property and its place in History but only in ways that would make the idea appealing to consumers.
Hate to break it to you but I can tell you from my 26 years in the USAF and never being assigned to an Air Force Base that I personally know quite a few “grunts” Army and Marine, US and Allied. I was a USAF JTAC; Ft. Benning, Camp Howze, Ft.Carson, Rose Barracks, Ft. Hood, Camp Casey, Ft.Hood. Six tours in the sandbox and plenty of Govt sponsored trips to other prime “vacation” spots. 18 NTC rotations. CAS was my business. On the ground with the troops, in the fight. This silly business of the AF not supporting CAS is crap. CAS is a very important mission of all branches. I have personally controlled AF, Army, Navy, Marine and foreign aircraft in the same engagement. The Air Force has had Air Liaison and other mission specific personnel with the ground combat forces since it’s inception. The battlefield is a JOINT mission, and for success all combat multipliers need to be utilized.
True enough.
I was just looking at the Obama Administration’s “Table S–7. Proposed Budget in Population- and Inflation-Adjusted Dollars Inflation-Adjusted Dollars (In billions of constant dollars, adjusted for population growth)”, Outlays:
Appropriated (“discretionary”) programs:
Defense
2016 2017 2018 2019 2020 2021 2022 2023 2024 2025
605 577 548 530 520 510 505 500 495 489
In other words, the Obama plan is to reduce the discretionary Defense budget about one-third as the Defense is already struggling with budgets that are cutting out the fundamental backbone bone of the national defenses.
Also see:
Yet the innovative tactics developed by the Mistys for their visual reconnaissance, strike control, and search-and-rescue missions formed the foundation for FAC operations later employed during Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts—and remain valid today.
http://www.themistyexperiment.com/
and
TACP (JTAC) Overview
Advise, Assist, Control
A TACP is a Tactical Air Control Party. It is comprised of a JTAC (Joint Terminal Air Controller) and a ROMAD (essentially a JTAC in training, though the reality is ROMADs are frequently seasoned operators in their own right, having completed lengthy and arduous blocks of training and lacking only the final JTAC certification). JTACs direct the action of combat aircraft operating in CAS (Close Air Support) and other offensive operations, calling in airstrikes and gun runs like an FO or an ANGLICO Marine calls in artillery or naval gunfire. The NATO is Forward Air Controller. A typical TACP (JTAC or ROMAD or both) might be on an infantry patrol one day to coordinate immediate CAS and attached to an ODA the next day for the same reason.
[....]
TACP personnel are usually collocated with the unit they are supporting, so for instance you might find 2 Airmen bunked down at a COP with a particular platoon or perhaps company sized element, and those Airmen may only rarely encounter anyone else from their “own” unit during the deployment.
Go Ugly Early!
Or, ask the boots-on-the-ground guys what aircraft THEY want backing them up:
Remember when Congress wanted to make the F-111 be a fighter, a bomber, and land on aircraft carriers?
Step by step: TACP family traces fallen brother’s final path, ‘Finish strong’
By Airman 1st Class Zachary Vucic, Air Force News Service / Published August 09, 2013
[....]
TACPs primarily act as a vital link between ground forces and the aircraft that support them. They put themselves in harm’s way to ensure bombs are on target. Gray’s choice to rejoin the career field and participate in the rigorous training again at age 37 was “a hard sell” to his wife she said.
“He just kept saying ‘You don’t understand, it’s so different; it’s what I’m meant to do,’” Heather said. “(He said) ‘This is why I joined the Air Force.’”
[....]
The 1948 Key West Agreement put all fixed-wing combat air with the air force. That's why the Army mostly just has helicopters, and why the mostly-fixed-wing V-22 Osprey is unarmed.
I'm for folding the Air Force back into the Army. Let Army generals decide Air Force careers according to how well they handle air support for the army.
“Or, ask the boots-on-the-ground guys what aircraft THEY want backing them up:”
Answer: everything and the kitchen sink. See:
TACPs recall 13-hour battle that saved dozens
Aug. 19, 2011 - 04:27PM | Last Updated: Aug. 19, 2011 - 04:27PM
“I’m for folding the Air Force back into the Army. Let Army generals decide Air Force careers according to how well they handle air support for the army.”
Then you are just making a fool of yourself by disregarding the purpose of the Air Force, the success of the Air Force CAS missions, and the Army Chief of Staff’s agreement that the Congress has denied the Air Force and the Army the funds necessary to maintain the A-10 squadrons in service. You keep acting like the Air Force doesn’t want the A-10, which is exactly contrary to the facts. The Air Force and the Army are being forced to sacrifice combat air squadrons they both know are badly needed, because Congress will not fund all that are needed. Before you make any more such foolish comments take note of how the Obama Administration submitted a 2016 proposed Budget to Congress which will be cutting the Department of Defense by another third in the next ten years in adjusted future dollars per population. This means the Air Force is set to lose not only the A-10 squadrons, but they’ll also be losing F-15, F-16, the B-1 bomber fleet, AWACs, air refuelers, and more. The Navy Air Forces will also be losing some of its Navy and Marine Corps squadrons that support the CAS mission. The Army is losing the OV-10 Bronco, AH-64 Apache, and much more. So, stop bad mouthing the Air Force with false and derogatory comments which are ridiculously contrary to reality.
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