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No, it’s not constitutional for the University of Oklahoma to expel students for racist speech
Volokh Conspiracy - Washington Post ^ | March 10, 2015 | Eugene Volokh

Posted on 03/12/2015 8:24:47 PM PDT by QT3.14

Some University of Oklahoma students in the Sigma Alpha Epsilon fraternity were videorecorded singing (as best I and others can tell),

There will never be a nigger at SAE There will never be a nigger at SAE You can hang him from a tree But he’ll never sign with me There will never be a nigger at SAE

University of Oklahoma president David Boren said, “If I’m allowed to, these students will face suspension or expulsion.” [UPDATE: The president has indeed expelled two of the students.] But he is not, I think, allowed to do that.

(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonpost.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; News/Current Events; US: Oklahoma
KEYWORDS: freedomofspeech; hatespeech; oklahoma; uo
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To: boop

I believe this was a fraternity function so even if not on scholl grounds it would be school related. As far as threatening, the part about lynching makes a strong case. I think that’s the part that made this so over the top.

Idiots, yes!! The sad part is this was not a one tme occurence, he wasn’t making it up as he went along. This song had been taught to him as he has now admitted.


41 posted on 03/13/2015 5:09:12 AM PDT by millerph
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To: Oliviaforever
Do you believe OU has the right to maintain such policies?

Abusive conduct: Unwelcome conduct that is sufficiently severe and pervasive that it alters the conditions of education or employment and creates an environment that a reasonable person would find intimidating, harassing or humiliating. These circumstances could include the frequency of the conduct, its severity, and whether it is threatening or humiliating. This includes physically abusing a person or holding a person against his or her will. Simple teasing, offhanded comments and isolated incidents (unless extremely serious) will not amount to abusive conduct.

Unless it can be shown that this was routine behavior by the frat brothers in question, conducted in the presence of targeted individuals, the by OU's own standards ("Simple teasing, offhanded comments and isolated incidents (unless extremely serious) will not amount to abusive conduct"), the bus incident was not actionable.

42 posted on 03/13/2015 6:30:36 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (You don't notice it's a police state until the police come for you.)
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To: nathanbedford

That sounds kind of silly. If I delivered a rant in Swahili that would disturb the peace in English, but none of my audience understood Swahili... then what?

Some holes need filled, at the least.


43 posted on 03/13/2015 6:38:12 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Embrace the Lion of Judah and He will roar for you and teach you to roar too. See my page.)
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To: millerph

Nobody today would understand the jibe about “hanging from a tree” as urging anyone to literally lynch anyone. That went out well before flappers did. On the other hand it was a particularly cruel minded quip.

The general racial oversensitivity of the modern day sadly obscures the actual miserable-minded jibes.


44 posted on 03/13/2015 6:43:52 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Embrace the Lion of Judah and He will roar for you and teach you to roar too. See my page.)
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To: millerph

If one wanted to liken it to Civil War attitudes, it would be like singing a ditty talking about someone from Tennessee shooting someone from Ohio today, or vice versa, on account of the Civil War. It would fall like a lead balloon, nobody would see any point to it except gratuitous meanness.


45 posted on 03/13/2015 6:48:44 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Embrace the Lion of Judah and He will roar for you and teach you to roar too. See my page.)
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To: HiTech RedNeck

It is not the content which disturbs the peace so it should not matter what language is used.


46 posted on 03/13/2015 6:49:39 AM PDT by nathanbedford ("Attack, repeat, attack!" Bull Halsey)
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To: nathanbedford

That is self consistent at least. Not sure how useful it is.


47 posted on 03/13/2015 7:38:33 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Embrace the Lion of Judah and He will roar for you and teach you to roar too. See my page.)
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To: PapaBear3625

If threatening to hang people from trees is not serious, could you please provide an example of a threat that would be serious?

BYW-the national chapter supports OU and will not stand by or support the OU frat members in any way. In any time of trial, the national organization will be a witness for OU.

The kids in question will be lucky to land jobs as greeters at the Cracker Barrel.


48 posted on 03/13/2015 9:54:03 AM PDT by Oliviaforever
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To: Oliviaforever
If threatening to hang people from trees is not serious, could you please provide an example of a threat that would be serious?

Serious threat: a specific threat communicating a real intent to cause harm to a specific, identifiable individual. Was there some specific nameable person against whom the frat boy expressed a desire to harm? No? Then it's not a threat.

Singing a song which happens to mention hanging is not a threat, any more than your doing a rendition of "I Shot the Sheriff" on karaoke night at the bar would be a threat against law enforcement.

BYW-the national chapter supports OU and will not stand by or support the OU frat members in any way. In any time of trial, the national organization will be a witness for OU.

But the ACLU disagrees with the University's expulsions:

As a state-run institution of higher education, the University of Oklahoma must also respect First Amendment principles that are central to the mission of every university. Any sanction imposed on students for their speech must therefore be consistent with the First Amendment and not merely a punishment for vile and reprehensible speech; courts have consistently and rightly ruled as such. Absent information that is not at our disposal, it is difficult to imagine a situation in which a court would side with the university on this matter.
It's not that they like the frat boys -- it's that they fear the precedent if it's allowed to stand.
49 posted on 03/13/2015 10:52:52 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (You don't notice it's a police state until the police come for you.)
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To: Oliviaforever
The kids in question will be lucky to land jobs as greeters at the Cracker Barrel.

You are correct. Their future lives appear pretty bleak.

And you think this is an appropriate level of punishment for singing a song, probably while drunk, and while they thought they were among friends who would not care.

50 posted on 03/13/2015 10:56:00 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (You don't notice it's a police state until the police come for you.)
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To: PapaBear3625

Do you believe that Muslim college students should be allowed to hold signs that say, “Death to America,” “Death to Israel” or “Hang the Infidels from a Tree?”

Or, would you stand with the ACLU and claim that it is protected Free Speech?


51 posted on 03/13/2015 11:02:22 AM PDT by Oliviaforever
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To: PapaBear3625

“And you think this is an appropriate level of punishment for singing a song, probably while drunk, and while they thought they were among friends who would not care.”

We all make decisions that will impact our own futures.

However, OU had nothing to do with exposing the students, so therefore OU did not harm the students.


52 posted on 03/13/2015 11:05:23 AM PDT by Oliviaforever
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To: Oliviaforever
Do you believe that Muslim college students should be allowed to hold signs that say, “Death to America,” “Death to Israel” or “Hang the Infidels from a Tree?” Or, would you stand with the ACLU and claim that it is protected Free Speech?

I believe the First Amendment protects objectionable speech, subject to the limitations of things like false and defamatory speech, and speech which is an clear and present incitement to criminal acts. In the latter context, "Death to Israel" is protected speech, but "Allah demands that you go out and kill Jews" is not.

53 posted on 03/13/2015 12:09:58 PM PDT by PapaBear3625 (You don't notice it's a police state until the police come for you.)
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To: Oliviaforever
However, OU had nothing to do with exposing the students, so therefore OU did not harm the students.

OU expelled the students based upon their speech, which is a harm to the students.

54 posted on 03/13/2015 12:11:05 PM PDT by PapaBear3625 (You don't notice it's a police state until the police come for you.)
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To: PapaBear3625

What about if Muslims in a student organization event start singing a song about throwing Jews in the gas chamber?

Could a public university expel those students?


55 posted on 03/13/2015 12:15:40 PM PDT by Oliviaforever
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To: PapaBear3625

“OU expelled the students based upon their speech, which is a harm to the students.”

The news and names of these students was out before they were expelled.

A degree from OU or even Harvard would not help them as Google and YouTube are forever and every potential employer will look them up.


56 posted on 03/13/2015 1:03:14 PM PDT by Oliviaforever
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To: Oliviaforever
What about if Muslims in a student organization event start singing a song about throwing Jews in the gas chamber? Could a public university expel those students?

It would depend on whether a reasonable person would conclude that the speech was an incitement to violence, meaning that there was a significant probability that the one or more people in the audience of the speech would be thus motivated to commit an act of violence in furtherance of the speech.

Note that I say "in furtherance of the speech". If the speech motivated someone to harm Jews, then the speech would be actionable. If the speech only motivated somebody to punch the speaker, then the speech would NOT be actionable (but the assault on the speaker would). Some universities have banned speakers because of possible violent hostility towards the speaker -- I do not consider that legitimate grounds for restricting speech.

57 posted on 03/13/2015 1:22:36 PM PDT by PapaBear3625 (You don't notice it's a police state until the police come for you.)
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To: Oliviaforever
The news and names of these students was out before they were expelled. A degree from OU or even Harvard would not help them as Google and YouTube are forever and every potential employer will look them up.

That is immaterial. They were expelled from a government-associated university, on the basis of their speech.

58 posted on 03/13/2015 1:26:19 PM PDT by PapaBear3625 (You don't notice it's a police state until the police come for you.)
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To: Oliviaforever
A degree from OU or even Harvard would not help them as Google and YouTube are forever and every potential employer will look them up.

Additionally, yes, the incident will hamper them among employers who care about what they said, or who are in a position where the employer would get problems from employees who objected to working with them.

That does not mean that there are no employers who would hire them (either in the US or overseas), or that the climate will not change down the road.

59 posted on 03/13/2015 1:41:53 PM PDT by PapaBear3625 (You don't notice it's a police state until the police come for you.)
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To: PapaBear3625

Their names will be in the internet for 100 years.

That is their fault, not the fault of OU.


60 posted on 03/13/2015 1:42:45 PM PDT by Oliviaforever
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