Posted on 02/02/2015 6:34:59 PM PST by purcre
Vincenzo Giovanni Ruello an experimental photographer from Australia has discovered what he claims to be the second shroud in existance in 2011 when he processed the Vatican Veronica Veil. The disturbing images show an identical face to the Shroud of Turin but tortured and battered with an eye bashed closed, fractured cheek,severe bruising. Gloria tv is screening the historical discovery never since Secondo Pia in 1898 has the world seen such images. http://gloria.tv/media/1cbGFGbq6Je
I thought it was David Copperfield with a beard.
Huh?
Of what?
Logically, it does: They were superstitious peoples and knew nothing of physical science. They didn't understand lightning; they didn't understand where disease came from; they didn't understand weather nor storms nor tides. Everything they didn't understand was directly attibuted to a god.
Do you really believe the stories in the Old Testament are true? Do you believe that Revelations in the New Testament is true from some guy in a cave? I understand that this is all about faith, but "blind" faith is something I don't believe that a god who gave us free will and logic would want.
Disclaimer: I am not an atheist, I'm am an agnostic who believes there is something behind the universe. I believe in "divine design" for this rock when it comes to evolutio, but don't subscribe to a wrathful god who needs to be worshipped. Since a child, I always found that petty. How could a benevelant god who created the entire universe need or even want to be worshipped?
Before you ask: I find my humanity and goodwill in the fact that I have sympathy, empathy, and compassion for my fellow human - it's part of our human make-up until others and life experience buries it.
Really? I need to explain this again? Okay. The Shroud of Turin shows a negative (not important) image of a man that has a one dimensial portrait of that image. In other words, it is like a painting or a photograph you would look at.
The Shroud was wrapped completely around Chirsts' body and face according to Biblical teachings. If so, why when stretched flat does not the sides distort and still look like just a frontal photo? The sides should have been there and distorted.
Try this: Draw a face all around on a basketball with a transferring paint. Then wrap that ball in a guaze or a media of your choice that will transfer the paint onto that media. Then lay it out flat. Parts of the frontal of the ball will appear normal, but the sides will be distored. Simple optics. Unless, god sent his light to just shine on Christ's frontal face, which may be a possiblility, I call BS on the Shroud.
First of all, it’s a two-dimensional image. That’s a gigantic difference. Secondly, you’re obviously not familiar with Tom D’Muhala and his findings on why the image looks the way it does. I attended a lecture he gave on the Shroud which he personally studied. It doesn’t lay out like a two-dimensional image would which makes it look fairly strange, and there’s an excellent reason as to why.
“...don’t subscribe to a wrathful god who needs to be worshipped. Since a child, I always found that petty. How could a benevelant god who created the entire universe need or even want to be worshipped?”
Whoa - you made several assumptions about what you think I believe simply because I said basically it’s not the relative intelligence of the people Jesus may have chosen to visit at a particular time in history that determines who in fact he is or is not.
I didn’t make any statements about what I believe about God’s view of our world or his benevolence (perhaps so-called) or even his desire to be worshipped.
I used to think I understood this kind of thing much better than I do now. There are a lot of things I used to be quite dogmatic about that I am not now. Maybe it’s getting older, more jaded, I don’t know.
I do know that opening the door even slightly on questions about God gets folks ramped up real quick. All I know is, God makes no attempt to be who we think he should be. He doesn’t conform to our image of him. Things we don’t like or accept about him make no difference to him. He is who he is. We can’t do a thing about it.
As to why he put us here and gave us free will, some part of me believes he may have actually longed for a friend, or someone to talk to. Like he talked with Moses and David and Elijah and Paul. I do believe he is a relational being.
Of course, too much cold medicine while typing. After a small amount of research into D'Muhala I can't find where he discusses the photographic layout, but discusses the carbon dating, possible addition of cloth threads, and blood stains.
Can you point to the proper URL that explains why NO distortion in a wrap-around shroud that when layed flat only shows the frontal face and not the sides. Thank you.
No. He went over it in the lecture. He pointed to what appear to be blood rivulets going down His forehead in the Shroud image. Why, with a guy who’s been battered as badly as Christ, would that blood stand out? His hypothesis was that it’s not blood, but matted hair. He demonstrated by blowing up a balloon and drawing a crude facsimile of the face and hair. He then deflated the balloon and everything settled in a similar way as in the Shroud image. At the end of “Passion of the Christ,” the burial shroud is collapsing as if Christ had basically passed through it and it fell in on itself. D’Muhala thinks that’s almost exactly how it happened, though I haven’t read up on the hypothesis of what kind of energy would be required to burn the image into the cloth in the first place.
Of course, as he freely admits, he can’t possibly prove that it’s the image of Christ, but he can prove that it is an image of a crucified man, it’s not a painting, and it came from the Jerusalem area.
"As to why he put us here and gave us free will, some part of me believes he may have actually longed for a friend, or someone to talk to."
Interesting that you would say that. Years ago there was a book called "Conversations With God" where the author forwarded the same theory. I thought that as good explanation as any as to why God dedided to put life on this speck of a rock out of the entire unfathomable universe.
Yours and his hypothesis is still workable for me. I just can't believe the universe and/or Earth was created for a god that needs validation through worship and forgiveness for Old Testament sins written by superstitious men. That is a petty human need. Doubt that such a being would need or even want that. If so, I want nothing to do with him/her/it.
Poor science...you can do the same with "Silly Putty". You didn't mention if he drew the image around the sides of the balloon as I suggested that god's light would probably encompass. If so, once deflated the sides would have been disproportinate to the direct frontal image. This is basic light and photography physics. But then, maybe god directed his beam at just the very front. If so, then it would all make sense and I would be wrong. I'd like to be wrong.
Fair enough. I won't bother you further. I'm not trying talk you out of your "faith", I'm just looking for logical and scientific empirical evidence that the Shroud is what many claim. I wish it was, but I don't see how the photographic evidence could possibly support a "divine" light. Again, that could work if God shot his light directly on just the face and not around the head/body.
How could you know that? BTW, dorsal means: "of, on, or relating to the upper side or back of an animal, plant, or organ."
You are contridicting your thesis by saying "...the image went straight up and down through the body, but not at all side-to-side", which dorsal implies.
Mark 15:46
Matthew 27:59
Luke 23:53
Luke 24:12
John 19:39-40
John 19:39-40 is contridictory: "And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself."
The Bible says he was wrapped (means surrounded and not layed flat on his face) many times in the apostle writings above. Then John says that his clothes were wrapped separately. Hardly works with the Shroud and doesn't work with photograpic physics when the face is "unwrapped or unwound" that should show side disortion.
Last thought: Do the best for your life and treat others as you would have them treat you. If something beyond, then you may experience something better. If not, than your reward is just doing good for others and knowing you tried during your time on this rock. Empathy is the keystone of our humanity.
Well hopefully one day he will come out of obscurity and tell us all exactly what it’s all about. A friend of mine once said he imagined going to heaven like riding an escalator and finding out the truth about all kinds of things along the way, like, “Wow! So there WAS a lochness monster!” Funny!
I was a fundamentalist evangelical for quite some time. Now I am walking my own path home, less wrapped around the axle about all kinds of theological details and such and more at peace with living life as it happens. I got so burnt out and jaded by fundies and all their head and guilt trips that I had to walk away. Couldn’t play the games anymore. Watch them being just as flawed as everyone else but convinced they were above it all.
So it’s okay with me that you have serious questions. I do too. Life is too screwed up for cute pat answers and bumper stickers. Maybe we’ll meet on the escalator.
Page 5 may give insight to your question.
http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/stlmarkwardtpaper.pdf
Hi Navy Vet, the cloth on His face in tomb is the sudarium held in Spain. it has no strange images. This cloth is the Veronica veil which now reveals a face. In the tomb the Shroud layed on His body and was also wrapped by other cloths tightly. On ressurrection the Shroud was given by Christ to a priests servant as evidenced by a 2nd century manuscript which most historical athiests and news media have hidden from public awareness called Gospel of the Hebrews
‘’ and Jesus gave the linen cloth to the servant of the priest and then appeared to James his brother ‘’ This explains the apostles only finding the face cloth now in Spain and the strips which wrapped around the actual Shroud
This was made by God not man its evidence of the life of Jesus Christ
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