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Arm Ukraine or Surrender
The New York Times ^ | August 31, 2014 | BEN JUDAH

Posted on 09/01/2014 8:04:33 AM PDT by Hojczyk

Russia would have triumphed over the world order imposed by the West after the Soviet Union lost the Cold War. This would mean the destruction of American geopolitical deterrence. America’s enemies, from China to Iran, would see this as an invitation to establish their own spheres of influence amid the wreckage.

Russia would not stop there. Mr. Putin wants to undermine NATO, and the smell of weakness would tempt him further. It would be merely a matter of time before Moscow exploited the Russians in the Baltic States to manufacture new “frozen conflicts.” Poland would feel compelled to act as though NATO did not exist, creating a defensive military alliance of its own with the Baltics; it might even establish a buffer zone in western Ukraine.

There is no easy way out now. But we must not let thousands of Ukrainians die because we dithered. We must be honest with them if we are not willing to fight a new Cold War with Russia over Ukrainians’ independence. But if we force Ukraine to surrender, rather than sacrifice lives in a fight for which we have no stomach, then we must accept that it is a surrender, too, for NATO, for Europe and liberal democracy, and for American global leadership. That is the choice before us.

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events; Russia
KEYWORDS: bhorussia; ukraine
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To: Agog

Thank you. The American people is being brain washed to believe our guuvernmaent and the State Run media = Putt King!!!


81 posted on 09/01/2014 10:51:27 AM PDT by danamco (-)
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To: Always A Marine
Again, Ben Judah correctly assesses the war's inevitable outcome and calls on the West to come clean with Ukraine.

Yes, this is one of the few NYT editorials I can agree with.

We (the U.S. and Western Europe) must either fully commit ourselves to a campaign that will very likely become World War III or we make it clear to Kiev that they are on their own.

Half-hearted responses, like sending weapons but not advisors will only prolong the killing (mostly Ukrainians) while not changing the outcome (that Putin will eventually prevail).

So what will it be?

82 posted on 09/01/2014 10:52:44 AM PDT by Drew68
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To: ansel12

Forgot to ask you, IF you know that Bite-me’s son tried to get control over Ukraine’s Oil???


83 posted on 09/01/2014 10:53:55 AM PDT by danamco (-)
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To: ansel12
It was cynical remark. Perhaps I should say that building helipad on the roof of the Kiev mission would be more effective.

That's how F*** EU will end.

84 posted on 09/01/2014 10:57:02 AM PDT by DTA
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To: Drew68
We (the U.S. and Western Europe) must either fully commit ourselves to a campaign that will very likely become World War III or we make it clear to Kiev that they are on their own.

I choose the latter. A smaller stable Ukraine is better than a large unstable Ukraine. Russophobes need to focus on the Islamic threat.

85 posted on 09/01/2014 10:59:55 AM PDT by palmer (This comment is not approved or cleared by FDA)
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To: ansel12; BobL
We threw billions at training the Iraqis and the Afghanis for over a decade for no good results.

This oped's shrill nature tells me the neocons already know Putin won. All those months we thought the Kiev govt was winning was just a rope-a-dope allowing the Kiev forces to use up resources and push closer to the Russian border allowing a pincer encirclement and plausible Russian deniability.

86 posted on 09/01/2014 11:00:45 AM PDT by Mentallo (Better dead than Muhammad)
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To: Hojczyk
Image and video hosting by TinyPic
87 posted on 09/01/2014 11:04:49 AM PDT by ansel12 (LEGAL immigrants, 30 million 1980-2012, continues to remake the nation's electorate for democrats)
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To: ansel12; danamco

No wonder few care for the Kiev cause when advocates like ansel accuse anyone who does not blindly support them of being traitors. You do not win allies or change minds like that.


88 posted on 09/01/2014 11:06:07 AM PDT by Mentallo (Better dead than Muhammad)
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To: Always A Marine
Russia is doing EXACTLY what we would do if an outside alliance threatened to expand anywhere in our hemisphere, let alone right on our border. And we have done this many times since the Monroe Doctrine was instituted in 1823.

I'll repeat it again. There was no reasonable threat by Ukraine to Russia. None! Ukraine was NOT seeking to become a member of NATO although they have every right to do it. Ukraine was not a threat to invade Russia.

There is no justification for what Russia is doing. None!

89 posted on 09/01/2014 11:06:56 AM PDT by FreeReign
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To: Drew68

Agree.


90 posted on 09/01/2014 11:08:48 AM PDT by Mentallo (Better dead than Muhammad)
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To: Hojczyk
We must be honest with them if we are not willing to fight a new Cold War with Russia over Ukrainians’ independence. But if we force Ukraine to surrender

We cannot "force" Ukraine to surrender based on OUR assessment of OUR national interest.

Ukraine must surrender, or not, based on THEIR assessment of THEIR national interest.

It's my opinion that these two things - OUR interest and THEIR interest - have minimal, near zero, overlap.

Anyone who thinks that we, or especially Germany, is going to get into a conflict with Russia over the Ukraine region is, in my opinion, delusional. Russia's interest in Ukraine is great. Ours is near-zero. Germany's is non-zero, but Germany has more to gain from an alliance with Russia than they do from pissing them off.

If the new leaders of Ukraine were smart - something for which there is no evidence - they would have reached an accommodation with Russia months ago instead of fantasizing about "the West", which no longer exists in any real (military) sense.

But, they've made their bed, and now they are having trouble falling asleep in it.

It's too bad.

91 posted on 09/01/2014 11:16:54 AM PDT by Jim Noble (When strong, avoid them. Attack their weaknesses. Emerge to their surprise.)
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To: BobL
building one carrier every 10 years or so

Do you know how many carriers we built in 1943?

92 posted on 09/01/2014 11:18:30 AM PDT by Jim Noble (When strong, avoid them. Attack their weaknesses. Emerge to their surprise.)
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To: Jim Noble
If the new leaders of Ukraine were smart - something for which there is no evidence - they would have reached an accommodation with Russia months ago instead of fantasizing about "the West", which no longer exists in any real (military) sense. But, they've made their bed, and now they are having trouble falling asleep in it. It's too bad.

With your usage of the idiom "they've made their bed", are you lecturing Ukraine on their decision not to appease the expansionist thug Putin?

93 posted on 09/01/2014 11:23:45 AM PDT by FreeReign
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To: Jim Noble

“Do you know how many carriers we built in 1943? “

Without looking it up, maybe a dozen or so, along with several hundred ships and thousands of planes.


94 posted on 09/01/2014 11:26:32 AM PDT by BobL (...part of Agenda 21 (whatever that is))
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To: Mentallo

“This oped’s shrill nature tells me the neocons already know Putin won. “

Agree...surprising that they FOOLED a bunch of people here that think they’re ‘experts’.


95 posted on 09/01/2014 11:27:40 AM PDT by BobL (...part of Agenda 21 (whatever that is))
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To: danamco

“There is more Capitalism in Russia, and more Socialism in the U.S. today !!!”

People I know that have been to Russia recently say the same. Russia doesn’t have to deal with “healthcare mandates”, insane environmental regulations, unions that hate their own companies, and an army of NANNIES that businesses in the US have to deal with.

...so good point.


96 posted on 09/01/2014 11:30:47 AM PDT by BobL (...part of Agenda 21 (whatever that is))
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To: BobL
The Afghans were much weaker than Ukraine, and they defeated a Soviet Union that was much stronger than Russia is today, even though they had never fired a stinger missile before. The strategy that defeated the Soviet Union will defeat Russia too.
97 posted on 09/01/2014 11:32:09 AM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
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To: Always A Marine

Afghanistan was on the Soviet border and the Soviets tried hard for ten years to subdue the Afghans. They decimated the Afghan population but in the end they lost. The war did indeed present an existential threat to the Soviet EVIL EMPIRE. It no longer exists. Russia shall meet the same fate because their leader looks back on the EVIL EMPIRE with nostalgic pride, and has refused to learn the lessons of the past.


98 posted on 09/01/2014 11:41:13 AM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
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To: Hojczyk

Mad Vlad does not recognize the sovereignty of other countries. He wants to “make space” from Lisbon to Vladivostok


99 posted on 09/01/2014 11:45:37 AM PDT by GeronL (Vote for Conservatives not for Republicans)
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To: FreeReign
I'm not lecturing anybody. It's none of my business.

I'm an interested observer and a student of history, that's all.

100 posted on 09/01/2014 11:48:16 AM PDT by Jim Noble (When strong, avoid them. Attack their weaknesses. Emerge to their surprise.)
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