You're right, they're not mutually exclusive but if science doesn't have the tools to investigate something, they might as well be mutually exclusive.
"No.... I just want secular science to admit that the answer to some of the problems that have been heretofore insoluble may exist outside of nature."
They do. They just use a phrase you don't like. They say 'we don't know'.
"That leaves us with Option 4... that matter and energy were created."
There is an another option (maybe #5 in your eyes but which I think is merely a tweak to your #4), it goes like this...
...that matter and energy were created by a process that we as yet, do not understand.
If you want to fill that 'not understood space" with the supernatural, knock yourself out but don't start whining that other folk might find the intellectually more rigorous concept of 'I don't know' more than acceptable.
"Which brings me back to the original point that has you so angry. Naturalism is a philosophy.
Not sure where you get that idea from, I'm about as relaxed as I could be.
"What I reject is this: “The answer to all of life’s questions can be found in the natural world.... now let’s study the natural world.” That is philosophical and can be refuted by using natural law itself.... I just did it above."
Really, you refuted nothing. You merely filled in a gap with your own prejudice. I've asked you this several times without getting a response. What do you find so problematic with the concept of "I don't know".
"I’ll say once more......If my keys are in the kitchen and I refuse to look there, I’m never going to find them..... if the answer is a Creator and you refuse to look there, you are never going to find Him."
Here we go again. Science doesn't have the tools to detect the supernatural. However much you want science to find the keys in the kitchen, until you explain HOW they can do so, you'll never be successful. Can you do it?
"Incidentally, Natufian. I know the Creator. If you’d like to know him as well I can help you with that."
Thanks for the offer but unless you can use science to reveal this creator, I'll take a pass.
***They do. They just use a phrase you don’t like. They say ‘we don’t know’. ***
I love the phrase “I don’t know”. What I don’t like is the phrase “I don’t know but I know you are wrong”.
***There is an another option (maybe #5 in your eyes but which I think is merely a tweak to your #4), it goes like this...
...that matter and energy were created by a process that we as yet, do not understand.***
Now if I had said something like that you would accuse me of using the “God of the gaps” fallacy, right?
Let me expand on that for you: “...that matter and energy were created by a process that we as yet, do not understand but that would have to violate natural law.”
***Here we go again. Science doesn’t have the tools to detect the supernatural. However much you want science to find the keys in the kitchen, until you explain HOW they can do so, you’ll never be successful. Can you do it? ***
Natufian, I’m merely suggesting that you look elsewhere. I’m not suggesting that you use science to look elsewhere.
The Bible is a historically accurate document that makes a lot of claims and it is filled with a lot of prophesy that has been fulfilled, including the regathering of Israel, which occurred less than 70 years ago (and about 3000 years after the prophesy was written). The bible predicted this event... nothing like it had ever happened before or since.
I will suggest to you that by studying the bible and looking into those claims you just might find the Creator.
***Thanks for the offer but unless you can use science to reveal this creator, I’ll take a pass.***
Understanding science has led a lot of people to the Creator. When you look at the intricacy of the cell, the awesome morphology displayed in the animal kingdom, the wonderful symmetry that exists in the universe that makes life even possible at all here on earth...
Creator God makes a lot more sense than a bunch of chemicals (where did they come from) in a mud puddle (where did it come from) billions of years ago..... if you’re honest with yourself, deep down inside you know there is a creator.
Ignore Him at your peril.... the Bible says He was here and He is coming back.
Blessings to you, Natufian.