Crimeans vote on union with Russia as troops build up rapidly

Reuters live coverage of events around the world. ^ | 16 March 2014 | Brian Tracey

[Errant]

SIMFEROPOL, Ukraine/KIEV (Reuters) - Crimeans voted in a referendum on Sunday on whether to break away from Ukraine and join Russia, with Kiev accusing Moscow of rapidly building up its armed forces on...

[annalex]

“I have seen no violations there. People have been voting as usual",... etc

That is beside the point. The region is under occupation; the referendum does not offer an option to stay in Ukraine. Under these conditions there is no need to coerce anyone at the polls.

The referendum is a sham. It did not allow Ukrainians to vote in Ukraine; it was called up in one week; the region is under military occupation; there is an edict by the powers currently in the Crimean Rada for secession regardless of the referendum; the pro-Ukrainian campaigning was forbidden.

That the majority of Crimea would like to join Russia or to secede is likely; that Crimea historically and culturally is more Russian than it is Ukrainian is true, but this referendum is not a way to find out. It is all the more puzzling why Putin needed to set up this farce while at the same time amassing an invasion force along the mainland border.

[tcrlaf]

You don’t read much about it in the Western Press, but Russia has been spending big money in the last decade on infrastructure projects, to lay the foundations for the future. And they are doing it using Chinese/Japanese help, for the most part.

For instance, the 400 mile Moscow-St. Petersburg highway, built to what we would call “Interstate Standards” (Purdue is in on this project), revitalizing the East-West railway, the Kamchatka Roads project to open up Russia’s Northwest to resource development, etc.

They still have the corruption hurdle, so ingrained from the Soviet days, to get over, though.

(but, how is this any different than trying to do business in Chicago, Detroit, DC, or just about any long-term Democrat stronghold?)

[tcrlaf]

Oops..
I meant “Russia’s Northeast”

[Marguerite]

” It did not allow Ukrainians to vote in Ukraine”.

Are you hanging on fat drunk Khrusthev’s straws?

Falklands referendum didn’t allow the Brits to vote in UK.

Kosovo referendum didn’t allow Serbs to vote in Serbia.

Scotland referendum won’t allow the Brits to vote in UK.

Catalonia referendum won’t allow Spaniards to vote in Spain.

Get over it. Crimea is back to Russia where it has belonged since 1774 , after the Russian-Ottoman war under Catherine the Great. The Russian people of Crimea are happy. Why would you grudge them that?

[BradyLS]

Russia Overtakes Germany To Become Europe’s Largest Economy

What a remarkable showing by Brazil!

[redgolum]

They are mainly Russians. Not really surprising. And the rebels aren’t exactly nice people either.

There are no good guys there.

[Marguerite]

What a remarkable showing by Brazil!

Indeed.
I was amazed to see that.

[Forward the Light Brigade]

Russia builds up Navy—great civilian jobs. I wish were were doing the same rather than closing Naval bases and Mothballing ships.

[annalex]

At the very least we need a readiness of Ukraine to accept the results of the referendum free from a threat of war under which it is today. Ukraine could, for example, offer to respect the referendum in Crimea in return for a peace treaty with RF that gets Russia (again!) to guarantee the rest of the border.

Such were the conditions of the Falklands 2013 referendum: Britain supports self-determination for Falklands (Falkland Islands sovereignty referendum, 2013), and of course, there is no threat of war anywhere. Similarly, the Scotland referendum is agreed to by the British government Scottish independence referendum, 2014

In Kosovo in 2008 there had been a de-facto independence from Serbia in place, and an international force (not Serbian force or Albanian force) was present under an UN mandate. The country was immediately recognized as independent by the world community. To the extent that Kosovo established a precedent at all, in order to follow it RF should get the war criminals in green out and then wait till (1) the Russian ethnics in Crimea suffer violence and (2) an international peacekeeping force takes charge in Crimea.

I would not be disappointed if one day Crimea joins Russia where it seems to culturally belong, but unless it is done in a civilized manner both Russia and Crimea will remain losers.

[Paleo Conservative]

No we were interested in establishing a Wahhabist base for our Saudi “friends” in Europe.

Perhaps the Russians want another Islamist hotbed in Crimea.

[annalex]

Your graph says PPP, that is per capita. Per capita GDP of Russia in 2012 ranks 58, behind Croatia, Gabon, Poland, the Balt countries, Hungary, etc. It is beating Botswana and Belarus. List of countries by GDP (PPP) per capita

If you mean gross GDP then Russia is consistently behind US, China, Britain, Germany, France and Brazil according to any list: List of countries by GDP (nominal). RF indeed beats Italy. Of course, a look at the sizes and populations of Russia compared to Italy and the rest might explain that relatively good performance. Note also that in RF that is oil money, unlike the well-structured European economies.

[Paleo Conservative]

Not to mention that the money Russia paid to Ukraine for the navy base lease, will go now to Crimea budget.

Sure it will. I bet Putin keeps that money in Moscow. If Crimea is now going to be Russian, why would Putin need to pay rent to anyone?

[duckln]

IMO, Russia is defending itself against steady encroachment by NATO. That's' their goal. They do not peddle communism world wide.

.If Ukraine joins the EU, Putin knows Russia is finished.

Ukraine has been unnecessarily belligerent and has a lesson coming.

Russia, a democratic, Christian, Caucasian country like us ,should and wants to be our partner, and for the last 25 years has worked to y\that end.

We need then like the free world needed Stalin in WW2, if we hope to save western culture from Islamist ideology domination.

[annalex]

The countries around Russia fall over themselves joining NATO because they have a history of being invaded by the USSR. Now that we see Ukraine facing an occupation of its territory by unidentified war criminals, and an invasion force along its border, we understand why NATO expanded like it did, and wish NATO membership for the independent Ukraine as well.

That Russia views itself as being encroached upon is true, but the world is not built on Russia’s sentiments. That is another thing this crisis showed: that by and large the Russian population has not repented of its Soviet past. They still see the other countries as either aggressors, or buffer zones, or possessions.

The present Kremlin leadership did everything possible to make RF politically isolated and militarily encircled. What they need is a maidan on Red Square.

[OldNewYork]

Yup.

[duckln]

. That Russia views itself as being encroached upon is true, but the world is not built on Russia’s sentiments.
So they encroach back. Very simple.

That is another thing this crisis showed: that by and large the Russian population has not repented of its Soviet past.
The Russian people suffered enough under the Czars and Communism. What's to repent.

They still see the other countries as either aggressors, or buffer zones, or possessions.
After Napoleon, the Kaiser, the Chinese, and Hitler, what would you think?

The present Kremlin leadership did everything possible to make RF politically isolated and militarily encircled.
Like what did they do? Other than have vast coveted resources.

What they need is a maidan on Red Square.
They had their election and Putin won and he has over 79 % approval. Ukraine had by all accounts had a duly elected president until a fascist group lead a coup which unfortunately we supported

END.

[annalex]

What's to repent

Russia needs to stop being a threat to its neighbors. Ukraine today, Finland in 1939, Poland, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania in 1939, Moldova in 1940, Georgia in 2008 were no Napoleon and no Hitler.

Putin won and he has over 79 % approval.

Yup. That is a problem for the Russian people in itself.

[Marguerite]

” Note also that in RF that is oil money, unlike the well-structured European economies.”

Plenty of European countries envy Russia’s oil and gas supplies and will be deligted to have the same.

Russia has changed a lot in the past 14 years. It is no more the Soviet Union you knew.
I met recently a friend’s daughters from St.Petersburg, who came here on vacation, 18 and 21 year old. They can’t remember the USSR, they weren’t even born when it collapsed. Nice manners, modern-looking , speaking impeccable English, it was a joy to show them around the city.

[annalex]

Russia has changed a lot in the past 14 years

So who are these people with red flags?

On the Red Square, people demonstrate their support for Putin's Ukraine policy. The flags say "USSR 2.0" and "The Meaning of the Time"

The past 23 years brought plenty of good change to Russia; all that time one could think that with a setback here and there, overall, Russia had been moving in the right direction: greater freedoms religious, political, and economic; recognition of the historical wrongs committed in the name of Communism; recognition that markets, not socialism bring prosperity; recognition of the right of nations to self-determination. Yet the election of a KGB apparatchik to presidency was the first sign that the one change that did happen in all other countries formerly in the Soviet sphere of dominance did not happen in RF: the country remained attached, at times passionately, to its Soviet past. While everywhere else from Bulgaria to Estonia people spent these 23 years building free European nations, Russia was forever re-celebrating the conquests of 1945.

Now no place for doubt remains: there is no new Russia; there is precisely what their flags say, USSR 2, smaller and perhaps angrier. The young generation got the taste for European vacations, learned languages and manners, but they are still the product of their unrepented historical past.

envy Russia’s oil and gas supplies

But that isn't the point, is it? Of course it is better to have something than not, but the economy 90% oriented to export of raw material is structurally a third world economy.

* * * There was, to be fair, a larger pro-Ukraine demonstration in Moscow, and that one was not produced by Putin's community organizers. But the mood in the country is Soviet-ugly.

In Moscow: For Russia and Ukraine without Putin