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To: C. Edmund Wright
movement across borders? No!No! - but again, we have self inflicted many wounds onto our own work force, with unrealistic expectations for low end labor, government hand outs ,etc……and reducing our liberalism at home would largely solve this problem.

Why is labor any different than goods and services? Doesn't a proponent of "free trade" also support the free movement of labor?

But as for the US trade policy? No, it cannot address those other problems you mentioned, not without clumsy central planning that picks rife with unintended and bad consequences to our own people, including the stunting of technology.

So you would not condition our trade with a country that uses slave/prison labor or children to produce exports to this country? Do you support trade sanctions on countries to influence their political behavior? Should US trade policy be "neutral" in terms of how it is used, i.e., kept separate from political, cultural, moral, environmental and other interests?

For example, we should not blame Apple or China for the fact that almost all of Apple’s products are made in China. Why? Because it’s American liberalism that caused it….not Apples’ greed. As for the conditions in China that make it attractive? Sorry, not something our elected officials can change. We just can’t.

There is no doubt that China can provide a more welcoming business environment free from such restrictions as the use of child labor, OSHA standards, environmental regulations, taxes, government subsidies, etc. How far should the US go towards replicating such an environment in the interest of businesses?

I have a real problem with the crony capitalism that has developed in this country. Government (federal, state, and local) controls over 40% of our GDP. Government decides who will be the winners and losers thru the allocation of funds, laws, regulations, etc. and corporations return the favor thru political contributions and support of the regime in charge. Right now, business is placing immense pressure on the political class to support an amnesty, an almost tripling of our permanent legal immigration over the next 10 years and a doubling of our guest worker programs. All at a time when over 20 million American are unemployed or underemployed.

Eisenhower spoke about how the the military-industrial complex posed a threat to this country. I would expand that to the corporate elite who increasingly have less and less allegiance to this country. They can go anywhere on the globe to conduct their operations and are increasingly doing so. The question is who is looking out for the welfare of the Republic and the American people?

257 posted on 12/13/2013 12:04:27 PM PST by kabar
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To: kabar
Doesn't a proponent of "free trade" also support the free movement of labor?

Interesting that you should mention it . . . Milton Friedman (as an intellectual exercise) argued that free movement of labor across borders would be possible if things like the social safety net were equal. (Thus preventing people from hopping borders in search of freebies).

Apart from that, your rhetorical (I hope) question betrays a level of ignorance about free markets that is disturbing.

258 posted on 12/13/2013 12:11:15 PM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: kabar

I agree with some of what you said, but I don’t agree with some of your other assertions. And NO - I do NOT agree that free trade is the same as having a borderless world….not at all.

The idea of free trade is that people and countries who might despise each other can still enter into relationships that benefit people who will not ever meet each other….which is totally different from a borderless society….totally.

I also agree that some trade agreements are related to cronyism, but my contention is that free trade is good, but that doesn’t mean all trade agreements are good. Cronyism in all aspects is awful and destructive, but cronyism would only become more rampant under more restrictive trade agreements, because by definition there would be more preordained winners and losers.

As for Apple, that company greatly improves the lives of those who work there in China, while improving the lives of their customers world wide. They did not create the awful conditions in China, and cannot be held responsible for them…..their situation is as win win…..and again, the only “loser” is potential US jobs, but that’s due to US policies.

It is an imperfect world, and freer trade is better for more people than less free trade. But nothing is utopia, and things only get worse when we try to find utopia.


259 posted on 12/13/2013 12:14:57 PM PST by C. Edmund Wright (Tokyo Rove is more than a name, it's a GREAT WEBSITE)
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To: kabar
Why is labor any different than goods and services?

Why are people different than goods and services? Seriously?

Doesn't a proponent of "free trade" also support the free movement of labor?

Nope. I'd happily eliminate 95% of the regulations added in the last 30 years while booting 95% of the illegals who came here in the last 30 years.

330 posted on 12/13/2013 8:52:07 PM PST by Toddsterpatriot (Science is hard. Harder if you're stupid.)
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To: kabar
There is no doubt that China can provide a more welcoming business environment free from such restrictions as the use of child labor, OSHA standards, environmental regulations, taxes, government subsidies, etc. How far should the US go towards replicating such an environment in the interest of businesses?

Well, having worked at engineering jobs for multiple U.S. manufacturers, the last of which / my current main employer is doing well but could be doing even better, let me take those item by item:

child labor

Generally, I'd say the regulations and policies in effect @ the end of the "Dubya" era were fine. There is no place for "industrial child labor" in the U.S. We should be effectively educating kids, period. On the other hand, it is ridiculous to say that farmers' kids should not be allowed to work on family farms, as long as they get their schoolwork in too. Some of the most ingenious / effective engineers and technicians I've ever met came from farming backgrounds.

OSHA standards

Some should be relaxed somewhat, but my main beef with OSHA Standards is not the levels set, or whatever the rules are, but how the rules are enforced. OSHA inspectors do not try to guide businesses into compliance, they slam businesses with big fines for the slightest 1st time infraction. Not to mention that the rules often change and can be insanely complex. I'm not saying that OSHA should be business' friend, but they could be more like the firm cop who writes you a warning ticket that you were going 58 mph coming into that 50 mph zone, and "the next time it won't be a warning ticket."

environmental regulations

Ditto OSHA comments above in some areas, and more so in others. Don't get me wrong, there's no way I'd want to go back to Chinese standards. My brother has been there a few times and... blechh. I love the outdoors and very much appreciate that, for example, many local sources of mercury pollution have been reduced or eliminated. If my family goes on a camping / fishing trip, the fish we eat are less likely to be contaminated by local sources than they would have been 20 years ago. However, there is a point where what one does is counterproductive: In many areas of the U.S. today, what mercury there is in fish in local waters likely has more mercury in it from Chinese sources making it all the way here, than from local pollution! If overzealous environmental regulations drive manufacturing overseas, which undoubtedly is the case, one may be shooting themselves in the foot both economically AND environmentally.

taxes

Corporate taxes absolutely should be lowered drastically, especially those on small business. Deductions for R&D and plant modernization should be increased and / or depreciation sped up.

government subsidies

Should be eliminated in most cases. There are better ways to create business-friendly environments -- and by the way I do agree with you about the current "crony capitalism" system.

380 posted on 12/15/2013 1:38:45 AM PST by Paul R. (We are in a break in an Ice Age. A brief break at that...)
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