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To: Hetty_Fauxvert
So using this idea of “shoot them as they turn around,” almost ANYONE, especially an INNOCENT person who does not have mayhem on his mind, is likely to be shot by LEOs

I mean no disrespect, but there are a number of unsupportable assumptions in that statement. First of all, we did the exercise in class in slow motion. At each state of the turning, the instructor asked us whether we would shoot. At about the point when the barrel of the (pretend) AK47 is, say, half a second from lining up on you, and the person holding the weapon can see you, that's when you feel there's no time left for niceties. Act now or someone dies, maybe me. In real time, that period of decision could take less than a second to pass.

I'm glad I have not been in that situation, yet. In the exercise, I was too slow to decide, even in slow motion. If the gun was a toy, you'd have your happy ending if I was the cop. If the gun was real, and he pulled the trigger first, I wouldn't be here, I'd have been killed in an instant, leaving behind a family who loves me and depends on me. Not a very happy ending.

I made other fatal mistakes during related exercises in that class. If you're ever in a bank robbery situation, and you're carrying, try to remember the robber probably has an undisclosed accomplice who can take you out if you try and pull your gun on the guy collecting the wallets and jewelry.

Bottom line, the police have developed the training they have for a reason. They want the bad guys to go down, the innocent bystanders to stay safe, and the cops to make it home alive on any given night. If the training can be tweaked to account for some of the more difficult scenarios, fine. Do that. But understand that once you're in the situation, you're going to fall back on your training. Superman is a fictional character. There will be no super-brilliant high speed decision-making. There will be no reading of minds. There will only be reflexes based on what you see and hear. Period. That's why you over-train.

As to your question of morals, I am a Christian, so that's my moral lens. And in the long history of Judeo-Christian law, murder isn't and has never been the same as killing someone through an honest mistake in judgment. You could perhaps make a case for manslaughter if you could show the judgment was reckless or unreasonable in some objective way. But here even that would be difficult to do, because the officer's judgment, as we understand it so far, appears to be within the norm for persons in his situation.

BTW, I should mention that my instructor brought up the unpleasant spiritual aftermath of killing someone, even when fully justified under law and morality. It's not something any LEO I have ever known wanted to have to deal with, years of second-guessing themselves and wondering, with their reason, not their reflexes, could they have done something differently? I am sure there are bad eggs out there to who this does not apply, but I have had the statistical good fortune of never meeting one.

156 posted on 10/29/2013 9:36:16 PM PDT by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: Springfield Reformer

Your post raised another question you can ask your instructor regarding threat determination clues, especially since it appears that in firearms training that is often the point of no return:

What indications were there in this case that should have clued this officer, a firearms expert, that this kid openly carrying what appeared to be an AK47 in his left hand with the barrel pointed down was not a threat???

What indications were there when the kid began to turn around to his right with the barrel still pointing down that he was still not a threat???

What indications were there when this kid was turning around with only his left hand on the rifle and his right hand in front of him no where near the rifle that this kid was still not a threat???

How easy is it to raise the barrel of an AK47 with only one hand, your weaker left hand, as you are turning around if you are not Rambo or Arnold???

Good luck getting a straight answer —


157 posted on 10/30/2013 3:51:07 AM PDT by Uncle Chip
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To: Springfield Reformer

“I made other fatal mistakes during related exercises in that class. If you’re ever in a bank robbery situation, and you’re carrying, try to remember the robber probably has an undisclosed accomplice who can take you out if you try and pull your gun on the guy collecting the wallets and jewelry”

What most concealed carry instructors fail to tell people, and even police officers forget, is that 40% percent of all armed robberies involve at least two suspects. It’s the standoff guy that gets you.


158 posted on 10/30/2013 4:55:11 AM PDT by Molon Labbie (Prep. Now. Live Healthy, take your Shooting Iron daily.)
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