Posted on 09/20/2013 4:29:03 AM PDT by spirited irish
Good one.
So very beautiful, dear brother in Christ! Thank you. May God ever bless you.
The problem you limn here points to the total inadequacy of the arguments presented by tacticalogic and BroJoeK on this thread.
Evidently they believe the Holy Scriptures reduce to mere texts, to be read at the level of a cookbook or an instruction manual or something like.
And so, BroJoeK is looking there for the explicit positive statement: Jesus is God. He does not find that statement in so many words — notwithstanding metmom's insightful list of citations on this very point. Therefore, BroJoeK evidently feels himself entitled to "skepticism" on this point.
The problem here is, it seems none of his main interlocutors on his thread — including spirited irish, Kevmo, YHAOS; me, et al., are in need of purely doctrinal comfort in support of the way they choose to live — as far as possible, in Christ, by His Grace. I imagine most Christians are not as "sola scriptura" in their approach to the biblical idea of human existence as BroJoeK seems to be.
Of course, I suspect that BroJoeK is a poseur, just here to stir up trouble and set off bombs....
BJK's main position appears to be this: All Christians are "wrong" in their belief, and one can use a selective culling of evidence from the Holy Scriptures to prove it. And not just positive evidence; but negative evidence as well — i.e., that the Bible doesn't explicitly say "Jesus is God," in so many words.
In so many words, BJK is telling us that Christianity is basically a "dead letter"; but to say this, he has to "forget" that the people who live in Faith find that letter — the Word — very much alive in their hearts, in their direct experience, in their acts....
The Holy Scriptures are communications of direct experiences, in symbolic form, of the Patriarchs, the Prophets; the Apostles, Saints, and Disciples of God, from First to Last.
Moses' encounter with the I AM started as direct experience — which then needed to be communicated in language. Experience precedes symbolization. Symbolization precedes communication....
The "vertical orientation" of human experience is something that "horizontal" linear types simply do not grasp, let alone understand.
Such folk prefer to build Second Realities — which do not have a snowball's chance in Hell of ever being realized in this World of divine making.
Dear MHGinTN, my very dear brother in Christ, thank you ever so much for "The Black Telephone." It is a simply magnificent short story.
No one here has a problem with their own beliefs. Some of us seem to have a problem with the other's beliefs and feel the need to correct them.
I cannot in principle correct for you what you ought to correct for yourself.
I do not have a clue what your "beliefs" are. In any case, I am not responsible for them.
Though Heaven knows, I do wish you well.
You are the one reading it the way i believe the Holy Spirit intended, which is evident in examining the entire gospel, in which John is revealing Christ to be the Divine Son of God, as in light from light, true God from true God, versus those who deny the Deity of Christ. Bless God.
You’re still here? It seemed like this thread was dying off. Maybe you’ll soon spread your heresies elsewhere besides Free Republic.
Today, these sites — here and here — list about 50 non-Trinitarian Christian denominations.
***If they call themselves ‘christian’ and they deny the divinity of Christ, they are heretics.
or in Kevmo’s delightful version (post #1,983) “God Damned Heresy” -
***Yes, that is a rare event to put those 3 words together in that order and not have it be simply a swear word. In this case it really is God Damned Heresy.
And do not leave out John 12:
“...who is this Son of man?” (John 12:34)
“...they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. (John 12:39-40)
“These things said Esaias, when he saw His glory, and spake of Him.” (John 12:41)
This refers to Is. 6:
And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. (Isaiah 6:9-10)
John says, “These things said Esaias, when he saw His glory, and spake of Him.” (John 12:41)
“Him” and /:His glory” refers to Christ here, but who does Isaiah say he saw in glory?
In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke. (Isaiah 6:1-4)
Thus John (the Holy Spirit by him) says that the Lord whom Isaiah saw in His glory when he gave this prophecy (perhaps the second most quoted in the NT) was Christ!
Also often overlooked but i see as saying more, in relation to Ex. 3:14,
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins. (John 8:24)
Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am. (John 13:13)
Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye? They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them. As soon then as he had said unto them, I am, they went backward, and fell to the ground. (John 18:4-6)
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. (Exodus 3:14)
betty: The “vertical orientation” of human experience is something that “horizontal” linear types simply do not grasp, let alone understand.
Spirited: In the Last Battle, the last book of the Chronicles of Narnia, Lewis masterfully portrays the psychology of horizontal, linear types with the bitter, cynical, mocking black dwarves.
Though they claim to be for ‘dwarves’ (collectively)and no one and nothing else, individually, each embittered, contentious dwarf is for himself alone. They are blood and soil creatures, meaning that like Tolkien’s Gollum, their souls are inward-turned and materialized, thus for them, only the “down here below,” the linear and horizontal dimension of the senses is real. As their darkened hearts blind them to the vertical dimension, they mock and ridicule everything about it, particularly Aslan.
After they have passed through the “door” into eternity, they sit close together, elbows and knees touching, in a small circle—blind to each other as they really were in life-—quarreling, shouting, pinching, poking, cursing, blaming, and hitting each other for all eternity, in the darkness they preferred to the light when they were on the other side of the “door.”
Next question is, is Jesus actually human?...
***In fact, the first religious heresy that christianity was confronted with was Gnosticism, which denied Jesus’s Humanity. That’s how strong the evidence for his Deity was.
So, bottom line, here is the question on the table: in view of their overheated enthusiasm for rooting out “heretics”
***The etymology of the word “enthusiasm” is enlightening. It comes from the greek “en theos” basically meaning “with God”. It also has a strong hint of inspiration from God. Jesus had a strong inspiration, an overheated enthusiasm, when He was rooting out heretics of His day.
I have no desire to join your pissing contest with others on the thread but I take GREAT exception to your easily proven false assertion that the Triune nature of our Almighty God is incorrect or that there are no DIRECT Scripture texts that say Christ IS God in the flesh. There is no other honest way to understand the deity of Jesus with the Father AND the Holy Spirit than one of two conclusions: there are THREE Gods OR God is three persons in ONE Godhead. I think the problem many people have with the idea of the Trinity is that they try to grasp its concept with finite minds - incapable of truly comprehending the INFINITE. Christians are not polytheists - there IS only one, true God. Therefore, the Trinity has ALWAYS been a major tenet of Christianity and those who claim to follow Christ cannot deny this. There are many things that we believe by faith.
Curious, isn’t it, how the denial of Christ’s deity comes out so strongly around the time we celebrate its reality?
No doubt they view it as a Christmas present. You know, a lump of coal is suitable for throwing into the fire...
Yes uncanny indeed. Still waiting for a response on John 20:28. Other than the “OMG” response:)
I take GREAT exception to your easily proven false assertion that the Triune nature of our Almighty God is incorrect or that there are no DIRECT Scripture texts that say Christ IS God in the flesh.
***Would you characterize such a denial of the deity of Christ to be a heresy?
***In fact, the first religious heresy that christianity was confronted with was Gnosticism, which denied Jesus’s Humanity. That’s how strong the evidence for his Deity was.
On the other-hand, a human GOD... is a contradiction of terms..
Religious Narcissism.. sooo.. Gnosticism or Narcissism.. two sides of the same coin..
Perception does not effect reality.. what is... “IS”... what ain’t .... Ain’t..
According to my reading Jesus never used the term Heretic..
A term used to divide seekers of “God”...
However it must be true.. that not all christians are indeed christians..
Separating them must be a HELL of a job.. d;-)~.....
Possibly beyond our grasp, where our concepts of “sameness” and “separateness” might not even apply rationally.
Indeed; Linear reality may indeed be an Illusion.. death could be metamorphosis.. and time an Allusion..
I didn't say you should. The relevant question would be whether you think they need to be corrected, not who should be responsible for doing it.
The question is whether Free Republic can find room in its heart, on this Christmans Day, to tolerate such interpretations?
***Jesus Himself didn’t find room in His heart to tolerate “such interpretations”. He properly called people like you “false teachers”, vipers, sons of your father the devil. The only person for whom He had harsher words was Judas. So if Jesus didn’t tolerate false teachers like you, why should Free Republic? And why do ask that such disagreement be put forth in delicate, flowery and soft tones? Jesus certainly didn’t, so why should I?
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