Posted on 08/30/2013 10:39:56 PM PDT by bimboeruption
As head of state at the Vatican, not to mention the leader of the world's 1.2 billion Catholics, protocol requires visitors to bow to him when they meet him at the Holy See.
But Francis, who has made the forgetting of formalities a trademark of his papacy, bowed when he met a smiling Rania as she visited the Vatican with her husband King Abdullah II on Thursday.
"Up until the 19th century visitors would kiss the pope's shoes, and the tradition is still that all visitors, women included, bow to him, but Francis behaves as he did before he became pope and is not interested in protocol," a senior Vatican official told The Daily Telegraph.
It is not the first time the Pope has eschewed formality when receiving visitors.
When Cristina Kirchner, Argentina's president, met him in March, a day before his formal inauguration, he gave her a kiss after she presented him with a gourd for mate, the traditional Argentine tea.
"Never in my life has a Pope kissed me!", Mrs Kirchner said afterwards.
When she met the pope in July, Brazilian's first female president, Dilma Rousseff took the initiative, kissing Francis on both cheeks.
Francis' bow was just the latest in a series of signs the pope has no time for ceremony.
On Wednesday he showed up in central Rome for a religious ceremony in an unmarked Ford, without the papal flag or number plate, driven by a Vatican gendarme.
He then entered the church carrying his folded mitre tucked under one arm. The incident recalled his carrying a personal briefcase up the steps to the plane on which he flew to Brazil in July.
(Excerpt) Read more at telegraph.co.uk ...
Yeah, again it is clear that you have no facts to post, just your usual self puffery and speculation.
For a professional historian and self described diplomacy expert, and a Protocol Officer for your governments Diplomatic Corp, it seems like you could just put this to rest by responding to post 35, rather than your usual sells pitch in place of facts.
All I’m interested in is accuracy, if the article is wrong someone can just give us the correct information so that we can rebut it.
To: A CA Guy
You should give us the examples of the Popes bowing to Islam’s Queens so that we can challenge this article.
35 posted on 8/30/2013 11:17:43 PM by ansel12
Thank you for the great explanation.
I hadn’t read post 35, so why would I have responded to it?
Having read it, at this point, I think it’s a stupid question.
I think it is quite likely that no Pope has ever actually met an Islamic Queen before. Most Islamic Monarchs would not let their Queen meet the Pope - many would not let them meet any man.
But Popes have met other Queens and bowed to them - Pope John Paul II bowed to Queen Elizabeth II on their official meeting in 1980.
Popes have bowed to Queens before. And in diplomacy, religion is not treated as a relevant factor.
For a professional historian and diplomatic officer as you claim to be, you sure don’t evidence it in your posts.
That explains why you can’t respond usefully to post 35.
What evidence do you want?
Can you point to a single incident where a Pope has met a Moslem Queen, before meeting Queen Rania?
I’ve checked - and as far as I can tell, it has never happened before. There are only a handful of Islamic Queens anyway (the Queens of Bahrain, Bhutan, Jordan, Malaysia, Qatar, and Saudi Arabia (Kuwait has had a Queen in recent history, but does not at this point) and the Queen of Jordan is the only one who has met a Pope.
So you seem to want somebody to provide you with evidence of something that could never possibly have happened.
Like I said, for you being a guy who claims to be a professional historian, you sure don’t post like one.
I’m not claiming anything, you are claiming the media and this article is wrong, like post 35 said, post the evidence and we can challenge the article.
Your speculation and personal thoughts isn’t that evidence.
Pope Francis: Muslims and Christians must work together
13 Aug 2013
Pope Francis called on Muslims and Christians to “work together”, during his Angelus address in St Peter’s Square on Sunday.
After reciting the Angelus with the thousands of pilgrims gathered in the square, Pope Francis said he wanted to extend his greetings to “Muslims throughout the world, our brothers and sisters, who have just celebrated the end of the month of Ramadan, which is dedicated in a special way to fasting, prayer and almsgiving.”
Pope Francis had written a message to the world’s Muslims for their celebration of Eid al-Fitr, marking the end of the month of fasting.
Echoing the theme of the message, he told the crowd that he hoped “Christians and Muslims will work together to promote mutual respect,” especially through the way they educate the younger generation.
“Pope Francis: Muslims and Christians must work together
13 Aug 2013”
Does he know this?!
Video from Egypt shows Muslim mob attacking Christian church, taking down cross
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3061077/posts
it was better the first way.
If this is the same chick who recently attended an elitist shinding out on Powder Mountain in Utah where corporate big shots could network with other amidst green energy and mother earth hoopla I’ve a co-worker who met her, and can attest she’s a stuck up b*tch.
You seem to want those who disagree to provide evidence that could not possibly exist. No Pope has never met with a Queen from a Moslem nation before - or more accurately, having checked for any evidence of any previous meeting between a Pope, and the Queens of Bahrain, Brunei, Malaysia, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, or Kuwait (the Islamic Monarchies that have Queens) - no such evidence seems to be available and such evidence should be available if they occurred - so it is impossible for anybody to show evidence that he treated such people differently in the past. It's the first time he has ever met with them.
So we cannot look for Islamic Queens as any type of precedence. But that doesn't really matter because in diplomatic protocol, religion is not relevant - diplomatic protocols do not differ because of the religion involved. So the question is have Popes bowed to other Queens - or other equivalent Heads of State. I know that Pope John Paul II did bow to Queen Elizabeth II on their first meeting in 1980, because I have seen video footage of that meeting. I have checked but due to the fact it occurred thirty three years ago, there's very little video footage and only a few images of that visit on line, and I can't find any at all of the actual moment they met, but I have seen it. In terms of bowing to other Heads of State, there are photos available of Pope John XXII bowing to President Dwight D. Eisenhower, on December 6th, 1959. Eisenhower is also bowing. It is clearly not unprecedented for a Pope to bow to another person of equal diplomatic rank.
I should clarify - Popes have met the Queen of Jordan before on at least one occasion (Pope Benedict XVI in 2009 met her in the presence of the King of Jordan, and their children). Popes just haven’t met any other Moslem Queens - that I can find any evidence for.
Is that your opinion as a professional historian?
No, it’s my opinion as a former protocol officer.
I am an historian and currently work as a history teacher. But this is not really drawing from my general historical knowledge, but rather from knowledge of current diplomatic protocol.
Pope Francis was, in my view, doing nothing other than being polite - more polite than he needed to be, but there is nothing to say a gentleman should only do the bare minimum than is required to.
This is no more a violation of protocol, than Ronald Reagan bowing to Queen Elizabeth was.
Since your speculation is that this is the first time a Pope has ever met the wife of a Muslim King, how about when they meet the Muslim King or has that never happened before either?
On Wednesday he showed up in central Rome for a religious ceremony in an unmarked Ford, without the papal flag or number plate, driven by a Vatican gendarme.
No, it’s not speculation.
Heads of State meeting other Heads of State is generally a significant news event, and are therefore reported. I have compared a list of all Queens of Islamic countries since approximately 1961* with list of Popes looking for such meetings. I have found none, except for this current meeting between Pope Frances and Queen Rania of Jordan, and one previous meeting between Pope Benedict and Queen Rania in 2009. I am confident there have been no other meetings between a Pope and any Queen of an Islamic nation, because they would have been reported and come up in the search I did.
Have Popes met Moslem Kings - yes, on numerous occasions. I’ve never seen any indication that any Pope bowed in such an encounter, but I would not be horrified if they had, nor would it breach protocol if they had. But there is a difference between the manners a gentleman is likely to show to a lady, and those that might show to another man.
*I used the 1961 date because it corresponds with the ‘modern’ period of diplomatic relations and protocols being defined under the Vienna Convention.
"I have found none, except for this current meeting between Pope Frances and Queen Rania of Jordan, and one previous meeting between Pope Benedict and Queen Rania in 2009.
OK, so this is the first Mohammedan Queen he bowed to, you don't think Popes bowed to the other, or others, nor the many Muslim Kings that they have met.
I don't know that the article wants to stop at 1961 like you do, but so far, I still don't see where all your passion is coming from as you keep working so hard against this article, with such little success.
"Why is he bowing to a raghead?"
"what the heck is going on with all this bowing, and why now, to Islam?"
"freakin muslim president bows to muslims. now the pope. Christ can’t get back here fast enough."
Three comments, just out of the first ten comments in the discussion this article inspired.
You said in post 21:
"So all Popes do this, this is just another goofy media tale?"
My point is that it is just another goofy media tale. Not because all Popes do it - most Popes have never done it, because they've never met the people involved. It's a goofy media tale because what the Pope has done is nothing at all unusual, nor is it a change of protocol, nor a breach of protocol. It's a completely normal event.
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