Meramec float trip ends in fatal shooting after dispute over property rights along waterway

St. Louis Post-Dispatch ^ | July 23, 2013 | Kim Bell, Paul Hampel

[editor-surveyor]

Zimmerman committed no crime,keep your strawman alive!

Yes, Obama is a criminal, whether you like it or not.

Your defense of scumbags is what you’re notorious for here.

[rustbucket]

"These cases are really very confusing. They are difficult to interpret,” Styron said. “You are on private property, but you have a right to be there if it’s a navigable stream and as long as you are on a gravel bar that is submerged during parts of the year, because it’s part of the stream bed.”

We were canoeing down a river in Arkansas many years ago and came upon a landowner sitting on the bank with a shotgun. He told us to pull up, and we did, of course.

He said he owned both sides of the river and therefore thought he owned the river bed too. It was clearly a navigable river, at least by canoe and raft. We told him we were from out of state and weren't aware of the situation. We did not argue with him. He let us go. I gather landowners like him were making the claim in court that they owned the river, but I never heard any legal outcome.

[rustbucket]

I found the court decision in Arkansas concerning the river we were canoeing down. The court declared the river navigable, and thus the landowner did not own the river itself even though he owned the land on both sides of it. See: Link

[greeneyes]

Missourians have a right to self defense, however, they also have an obligation to prevent deaths. Both parties were obligated to withdraw from the confrontation.

The person with the gun fired without justifiable provocation: no one had fired at him or assaulted him. Also, if you don’t want tresspassers, you are supposed to clearly post the property.

The dead guy was young and acted in a dumb way. The correct and intelligent action to take when faced with such a person is to humor them. Just say sorry sir, we’ll be leaving right away.

[greeneyes]

Missouri has what you could call modified stand your ground. If I understand it correctly you have an obligation to withdraw if possible to avoid killing someone.

If that person is in your home, you have no obligation to withdraw. Likewise, if you had an empty hunting cabin, and set up a trap in case of vandels. You can be charged with manslaughter if someone dies as a result of that trap.

To me it’s very confusing. Our Sheriff and judge told my Dad, if you shoot an intruder, make sure you drag him all the way into the house, and explain that he tried to assault you and you feared for your life.

[greeneyes]

That’s true Kart. However, according to the story, the landowner shot at them before they picked up rocks and came toward him. That can be seen as premeditated assault, and will I think, have an impact on the case.

Had they actually thrown rocks and hit him before he shot, that would be a stronger case for him. This is complicated further by the uncertainty over whether they were on his property when he fired at them, or were they still on the easement?

It’s stupidity for the floaters to have stayed there, but it’s not a clear cut case of self defense for either party. Might wind up with involuntary manslaughter for the landowner though.

He wasn’t injured, and juries don’t like dead bodies over things like stealing watermelons or taking a leak. Now if you get 12 people who own property on a canoe stream.....

[greeneyes]

I’m from Missouri. You have made an excellent summary and likely outcome. Missouri Law is tailored for self defense to prevent bodily harm to yourself and family, but not for trespass.

[greeneyes]

How can you be sure that it’s not a case of a bunch of rednecks vs armed redneck? Both of whom seem to be short of a full deck?LOL

[greeneyes]

That’s Arizona-not Missouri.

[PLMerite]

“How can you be sure that it’s not a case of a bunch of rednecks vs armed redneck? Both of whom seem to be short of a full deck?LOL”

Oh, no doubt there was plenty of stupid to go around.

[PLMerite]

“Our Sheriff and judge told my Dad, if you shoot an intruder, make sure you drag him all the way into the house, and explain that he tried to assault you and you feared for your life.”

That’s bad advice. Tampering with a crime scene makes it look like you’ve got something to hide.

[from occupied ga]

Your defense of scumbags is what you’re notorious for here.

Me and every defense attorney worth his salt.

Don't you have some jackboots to lick? Only a fool (and that would be you) doesn't consider defense against the powers of the state via the judicial system to be the most important part of said judicial system. And BTW mr alinsky-nifong The guy here may or may not have committed a crime. That remains up to a jury of his peers to determine not some mouthy blowhard spiritual offspring of angela corey and michael nifong.

[greeneyes]

I don’t believe they were seriously telling him to tamper with the crime scene. More of a cautionary comment on the state of the law in Missouri at the time.LOL

[PLMerite]

I’m sure your Dad was smart enough not to take the advice literally, but you’d be amazed at how many times I’ve heard it repeated as gospel. :)

[Lazamataz]

Doesn't work that way. Man comes down with gun drawn --- automatic murder charge.

Bet you a buck you live in a liberal state. In Georgia, you can protect your property and your family with a loaded, unslung, breech-locked firearm with no risk of prosecution.