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Meramec float trip ends in fatal shooting after dispute over property rights along waterway
St. Louis Post-Dispatch ^ | July 23, 2013 | Kim Bell, Paul Hampel

Posted on 07/23/2013 10:58:05 AM PDT by rwa265

It was just supposed to be a pit stop.

A group of family and friends on an annual float trip stopped at a gravel bar in the Meramec on Saturday afternoon to refresh drinks and answer the call of nature, according to Loretta Dart, who was on the trip. Her cousin went into the woods to urinate.

In doing so, he apparently ignited the ire of a property owner along the river fed up with people traipsing on his property. James Robert Crocker, 59, confronted the group with a 9 mm handgun, and in an altercation over property rights that rapidly escalated to gunfire, fatally shot Dart’s husband in the head from a few feet away, authorities say.

(Excerpt) Read more at stltoday.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: banglist; guncontrol; meramec; propertyrights; secondamendment; shooting
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To: from occupied ga

Huh? Honestly, if you have a response, fine. Instead ít appears you have no substantive response available. However, if you want to make a real argument that I misunderstood the data presented, go ahead, make that argument. I make no claim of infallibility. I gathered the nature of Dart’s contact from his wife’s description, and that is exactly how I understood his contact, like I myself have done, reaching out to an angry individual by touching their shoulder or upper arm. It’s a basic, almost reflexive form of communication. If you have information that picks up something different about it, I missed it. I am sure the jury in any trial of Mr Crocker will have access to better information and will thoroughly explore the possibilities.


181 posted on 07/24/2013 7:06:23 AM PDT by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: Springfield Reformer
I myself have done, reaching out to an angry individual by touching their shoulder or upper arm. It’s a basic, almost reflexive form of communication

Merde Natures way of telling you not to touch


182 posted on 07/24/2013 7:13:45 AM PDT by from occupied ga (Your government is your most dangerous enemy)
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To: from occupied ga

LOL, I can see you as the guy down at the river popping caps and raging and being unable to handle weekend rafters without killing someone, unable to handle a weekend middle class situation or control yourself, I described guys like you in post 155.


183 posted on 07/24/2013 7:23:55 AM PDT by ansel12 ( Santorum appeared on CBS and pronounced George Zimmerman guilty of murder, first degree. March-2012)
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To: ansel12
I can see you as the guy down ...

Just shows how severely limited your intellect is.

184 posted on 07/24/2013 7:44:32 AM PDT by from occupied ga (Your government is your most dangerous enemy)
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To: from occupied ga

Heh, I rest my case.


185 posted on 07/24/2013 7:45:51 AM PDT by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: Manly Warrior
I believe that is the case here on “non-navigable” waters. “Navigable” meaning the water was used for commercial purposes at some point in history, and that is where the disagreement comes in. What is the definition of “commercial use”. Does it mean ferries or barges used to transport goods, or can the fact that a mill one floated log rafts down it count. If it is non-navagable then the land owner owns to the thread of the stream, but as in your case the public can still float over it.
It would take a lot to get me to shoot someone for pooping on my property, so who knows what happened in this case. In short by a dog, just having one on the grounds with an occasional woof woof gets most people to keep moving along.
186 posted on 07/24/2013 7:46:23 AM PDT by enraged
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To: PaForBush
I’ll put money on the fact that they’re counting your waterway as part of your land.

That was more or less hypothetical as the only flowing water on my property is when the snow melts. I do have an easements along the frontage for a county highway and another along the back of my lot for a private road that is in fact the only access for three more houses behind my lot. I did some digging and I pay property tax on both easements. The county road bites as it is over 300 feet long and 24 feet wide! The private road is half that in area and the three home owners are responsible for upkeep so it's not such a bad deal as it also gives me access to the back yard for trucks and such.

Regards,
GtG

PS Even with all the nibbling along the edges my lot is about 2 acres.

187 posted on 07/24/2013 8:44:21 AM PDT by Gandalf_The_Gray (I live in my own little world, I like it 'cuz they know me here.)
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To: listenhillary

I don’t think that the shooting occurred on the gravel bar. The men left to urinate in the woods on private property. That’s why the argument wasn’t in front of everyone. I am certainly not defending the guy, but I have seen signs in Arizona that say, Trespassers will be shot.


188 posted on 07/24/2013 9:51:00 AM PDT by Eva (B Obama is to Trayvon Martin as Al Sharpton is to Tawana Brawley)
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To: Eva

While the family member may have trespassed initially, pictures of the scene and what is described in the story lead me to believe the shooting took place where floaters have a right to be.

It will be a fascinating case to follow. Floaters bring millions of dollars into counties that have become dependent on the tax revenue. While land owners may share the shooters irritation with the trespassers, they will consider the revenue that floaters bring in. Funds that finance their schools, their fire protection and their roads.

“On Monday afternoon, empty medical supply packets lay next to the bloody spot on the gravel bank where first responders treated Dart. Police tape fluttered from the “Keep Out” sign that Crocker had planted in the gravel.”

The pictures I have seen of the keep out sign appeared to me to be in the river’s gravel bar.


189 posted on 07/24/2013 10:04:48 AM PDT by listenhillary (Courts, law enforcement, roads and national defense should be the extent of government)
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To: Eva

190 posted on 07/24/2013 10:09:34 AM PDT by listenhillary (Courts, law enforcement, roads and national defense should be the extent of government)
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To: from occupied ga

You’re offering false circumstances. (a strawman)

He shot before anyone did anything.

He deserves the sentence he’s going to get, and more.

When you buy riparian lands, you have an obligation to learn riparian laws that affect that land.


191 posted on 07/24/2013 12:19:00 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: Eva

Everything happened on the gravel bar.


192 posted on 07/24/2013 12:20:01 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: editor-surveyor
You’re offering false circumstances. (a strawman)

thank you mr alinsky. That's exactly what YOU'RE doing.

193 posted on 07/25/2013 3:52:29 AM PDT by from occupied ga (Your government is your most dangerous enemy)
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To: from occupied ga

Will you ever tire of trolling for support of malefactors?


194 posted on 07/25/2013 9:46:18 AM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: editor-surveyor
Will you ever tire of trolling for support of malefactors?

Will you ever develop intellectual honesty?

195 posted on 07/25/2013 10:08:25 AM PDT by from occupied ga (Your government is your most dangerous enemy)
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To: from occupied ga

Intellectual honesty is what forces me to recognize you for the troll you have chosen to be.

Ever the guardian of the criminal.


196 posted on 07/25/2013 11:19:47 AM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: editor-surveyor
Ever the guardian of the criminal.

Yes absolutely You might have forgotten or just don't care that the ACCUSED is not a CRIMINAL until tried and found guilty by a jury of his peers. NOTE: Innocent until PROVEN guilty. Entitled to trial by jury of peers. Standard of "reasonable" doubt. Concepts that you are apparently not happy with. Whereas "rush to judgment" is something that you, Michael Nifong, Angela Corey all approve of.

I think you would have been happier during the French Revolution - j'accuse whomever and off to the guillotine.

197 posted on 07/25/2013 11:53:09 AM PDT by from occupied ga (Your government is your most dangerous enemy)
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To: from occupied ga

No, you’re confused.

A criminal becomes a criminal when he commits a crime; and a convict when he is found guilty.

Are the Clintons not criminals?

Ayers?

Obama?


198 posted on 07/25/2013 2:37:01 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: editor-surveyor
and a convict when he is found guilty.

That would be IF he's found guilty. If he's NOT found guilty, then he isn't a criminal. You remind me of the mouthy demonstrators still screaming about Zimmerman.

199 posted on 07/25/2013 8:18:20 PM PDT by from occupied ga (Your government is your most dangerous enemy)
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To: editor-surveyor

You really don’t comprehend the whole concept of the US criminal justice system and the philosophy behind it. Do you think Zimmerman is a criminal? 0bama is a narcissist, a tyrant, a liar, a racist, a hate monger, a far worse threat to freedom than any number of al quaeda terrorists, but sadly not a criminal.


200 posted on 07/26/2013 5:45:06 AM PDT by from occupied ga (Your government is your most dangerous enemy)
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