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To: Fee

I question two points:
I don’t believe one is justified in attacking anybody just because they think they are being followed. That would allow someone to attack a person simply traveling the same direction - not rational.

Just because a 911 dispatcher tells me something, I am under no obligation to comply. Not complying with the directions of someone without actual knowledge of the situation in no way implicates a person of anything.

Zimmerman’s lawyer should make mincemeat of any prosecution strategy reliant on your two claims.


58 posted on 06/30/2013 10:14:42 PM PDT by GilesB
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To: GilesB
When GZ decided to follow TM after the 911 operator told him it was not necessary he entered a legal no man’s land.

Rubbish!

1. The dispatcher is without authority to order Zimmerman to do or refrain from doing anything.

2. In fact, the dispatcher did not order Zimmerman to refrain from following Martin, read the actual words, they are close but not to the same as the ones you posted.

3. There is no such place as "legal no man's land."

4. Even if the dispatcher had authority, contrary to law, to order Zimmerman to refrain from following Martin, and even if the dispatcher had, contrary to the facts, exercised that authority and ordered Zimmerman to refrain from following Martin, Zimmerman had an absolute right to follow Martin without diminishing his right to act in self-defense. Your analogy of entering a bar and provoking a fight so that one can shoot his antagonist in self-defense simply is not applicable. Following someone, apart from a court order of restraint, is perfectly legal. A dispatcher's order even if considered to be somehow binding on Zimmerman, has absolutely no bearing on his right to exercise self-defense. Following someone, even in violation of a dispatcher's mandate to refrain from doing so and even if one considers that legally binding, does not cause forfeit of our right to self defense that right is dependent on, and only upon, Zimmerman's reasonable apprehension of imminent "great bodily harm."

Florida Statute:

776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:

(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or [even if (A) Zimmerman had been ordered to refrain from following Martin (B) and the dispatcher had the legal authority to do so, and (C) Zimmerman had in fact followed Martin after a mandate not to do so-for which there is no evidence, Zimmerman still have the right to use deadly force if he reasonably believed that he was in imminent danger of great bodily harm and having one's nose broken, being pummeled from someone on top of oneself, and having one's head bashed into the concrete, inarguably justified Zimmerman in a reasonable belief that he was in imminent danger of great bodily harm]

(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force. [You will note in your bar fights scenario the armed user of deadly force must first withdraw-not to be confused with the failure to refrain from following Martin]

What do the "proceeding sections of this chapter" say?

776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or

(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. A76.013. (Emphasis supplied)


69 posted on 07/01/2013 12:10:53 AM PDT by nathanbedford ("Attack, repeat, attack!" Bull Halsey)
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To: GilesB
Just because a 911 dispatcher tells me something, I am under no obligation to comply.

It wasn't 911. It was non-emergency. The operator did not order him to do anything, and did not have the authority to do so. The operator has testified that they never order people to do things. Discussion of what the operator said or did not say is a red herring. It is irrelevant.

72 posted on 07/01/2013 12:54:22 AM PDT by PhatHead
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To: GilesB

Here is the problem, if you follow someone, and he notices that you are. Most people will move on quickly, some may turn and ask what the hell you are up to? In his mind you may be up to no good. No one is around to tell the jury GZ was away at reasonable distance or GZ was eyeing him and following him close. No one knows. GZ is the only one alive to tell the tale. TM is not. Jentel can only testify that TM noticed GZ following him and he is agitated. GZ attorney can nit pick the details, but the overall testimony is TM noticed that he was followed. The neighbor who called 911 can only testify that moments TM was shot, TM was on top of GZ beating him. Both do not tell you what happen in between. As far I can tell, the DA cannot refute GZ story that he stopped following TM, was walking back to his SUV and TM followed him, challenged him and punched him. Forensic is next and they will use a computer generated 3d to show the location of the two men when the cops arrived, GZ SUV and Jentel’s father’s condo unit location. That may shed clues of who was chasing who. Unless there is another witness, GZ should win, but all this could have been avoided if he did not follow TM to see where he went around the corner. Never give a hair of reason for the DA to come after you. DA are a funny lot. Some see convictions as scores for future higher office, others just respond to political pressure from higher ups. Problem is don’t give them an excuse to prosecute you. A trial is legal risk, innocent people have been found guilty, and even if you win, the financial costs are unbelievable. Anytime you want to play policeman and it result in shooting someone, you better have all your ducks in order. Cops have more latitude then a CCW to shoot someone. They can kill you without you doing anything, CCW have very strict criteria if the shooting is not so clear cut.


75 posted on 07/01/2013 1:01:41 AM PDT by Fee
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To: GilesB
I believe my reply #58 should have been directed at Fee.

Heads up to John Valentine


84 posted on 07/01/2013 2:55:38 AM PDT by nathanbedford ("Attack, repeat, attack!" Bull Halsey)
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