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To: Jeff Winston

The point was not that you haven’t commented, it was:

“You have no answer to the facts provided that show that claims made, by you and others, are simply untrue.”

The fact is, a natural born citizen is a person born in a country to two citizen parents because he/she can be nothing else. For some strange reason you guys want to expand that definition to something that would put the President of the United States subject to the laws of another country. I don’t understand you.


280 posted on 05/11/2013 2:28:12 PM PDT by Larry - Moe and Curly (Loose lips sink ships.)
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To: Larry - Moe and Curly
“You have no answer to the facts provided that show that claims made, by you and others, are simply untrue.”

I just counted the number of pages in my notes. So far, I'm up to about 90 pages.

If you want to know why I haven't posted the debunking of all of the BS fallacious arguments made by birthers yet, it's that I haven't had time to go through and edit 90 pages.

And actually, it'll expand beyond that by the time I'm done.

In every single case (and I'm up to about 45 instances so far) I can identify, clearly, exactly where the fallacy is, or where the argument collapses.

Every case.

It doesn't matter if you deny the truth. Your denial still doesn't make it true. Your desire to engage in a fantasy doesn't make the fantasy anything other than a fantasy.

Fantasies are nice. I can imagine that it's nice to pretend that Charlize Theron is your girlfriend.

Continuing to insist that fantasies are real isn't healthy.

I frankly don't care if I convince you or other birthers. In my estimation, you're beyond hope. Your desire to engage in fantasy, and for whatever reason, to pretend that it takes birth on US soil plus two citizen parents for a person to be a natural born citizen, is so intense I'm sure you'll never give it up.

But any reasonable person who reads these threads can see, clearly, that fantasy is all it is.

The fact is, a natural born citizen is a person born in a country to two citizen parents because he/she can be nothing else.

This is your fundamental error. You want "natural born citizen" to mean "a person born in a country to two citizen parents." So you say, "Well, NATURAL. That MUST mean, blah, blah, blah."

But a legal term doesn't mean what you or I WANT it to mean. It means what it means.

And we can only know what it means by looking at how people have always defined it, in history and in law.

And in history and in law, "natural born" meant that you were BORN INTO A COUNTRY. Period. And it didn't require that your parents were citizens of that country. It only required that you were born there.

The idea was that God has divided the world up into kingdoms and countries.

And if you were born in a country, that was your country. That was the country you owed your allegiance to. It wasn't your parents' country, or your grandparents' country, that you owed your allegiance to.

It was the one you were born in.

And so you were called a "natural born" citizen or subject of that country, and you were obligated to obey the laws of that country.

So in order to understand what a historical and legal term meant, you have to look at what it always meant. You can't just say, "Well, I know what that MUST mean," and assign it your own meaning.

Because it has HAD a meaning, for centuries.

And that meaning is absolutely clear.

It has NEVER meant what you claim.

If it had, I would be here talking about how it had always meant what you say it does.

But it doesn't. It just doesn't.

And never did.

282 posted on 05/11/2013 3:16:02 PM PDT by Jeff Winston
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