American Energy Independence Is A Complete Myth

BusinessInsider.Com ^ | 05/07/2013 | Rob Wile

[DannyTN]

Lots of people think American energy independence is within reach thanks to our shale boom.

...

It's been a long time since producing all your own oil actually made you independent. We spent 40 years transforming global markets so they were integrated and flexible, to give us protection from the vagaries of global oil production, and one of the side effects is we're now part of that, even if we produce all our own oil. ...

[DB]

I agree 100%.

Economic freedom is capitalism. Those against capitalism are simply against individual freedom - they can’t have it both ways.

[cripplecreek]

A lot of the dams being taken down can be replaced by an efficient gas powered generating plant.

Frankly I'd rather keep the dams that actually create high value lakefront properties, fishing and boating related industries, plus reliable power and use the gas we need and sell the rest.

[thackney]

don’t tell me we can’t figure out how to get homes off the current utility grids. That will mean an enormous change in our energy consumption

As long as you want to pay more money, you can get your home of the grid today. Permits might be an issue depending on where you live and what technology you choose. But certainly, you will either pay more or accept less power/reliability than the public utility for residential service.

That will mean an enormous change in our energy consumption.

You can move your energy consumption, but we will most likely be consuming more not less total energy. You are not going to reach the inefficiencies of massive power plants by replacing each one with thousands of residential units, each one sized for the maximum needed output but usually running at a much smaller load, and outside it's peak efficiency range.

- - - - - -

Most talk of energy independence is centered around petroleum, since that is our significant energy import. Petroleum is such an insignificant part of our nation's electrical power generations, it isn't worth discussing in relationship to electric power generation.

[C. Edmund Wright]

That’s why I like the term free enterprise and free markets better....seems to more closely link the concepts of freedom and economic reality.

[SpaceBar]

I agree. The “free trade” mantra might look good on paper during times of global prosperity and everyone getting along, but that’s hardly the case now. We are in a state of war which is hot in many places, regardless if anyone recognises it, and oil is a strategic material. During WWII which was the last war we actually fought with the goal of unconditional surrender, strategic commodities were tightly controlled which includes petroleum, industrial diamonds, iron ore, tungsten, and rare earths amongst other things.

[DannyTN]

"If we produce enough to break even, or be a net exporter on net, then who gives a sh-t whether the specific gallon of gas in your Prius came from Texas or Alaska or the Dakota’s or Saudi?"

We give a sh-t because it matters when war breaks out. And because cheap energy is vital to our economy.

War is what convinced Thomas Jefferson of the importance of manufacturing. For years Jefferson couldn't care less about manufacturing, believing that an agrarian society was closer to God. Then the "unthinkable happened" and Europe cut us off.

And suddenly the light bulb went off and Jefferson came to the conclusion that a strong manufacturing base was necessary to protect a free state.

Same thing goes for Energy. We're not independent until we both have the means to produce the energy we use AND the will to hold on to what we produce.

That's not saying we have to produce it now. But if the world cuts us off tomorrow, we need to be prepared. And we are not. We don't have the mindset to protect our energy sources, our industry.

And not even 23% unemployment seems to be changing our mind.

[saganite]

Most of the dams being taken down produce little in the way of electric power and some of them have come to the end of their useful lives. Those dams can be replaced by other power generating technologies for less than the cost of restoring/ repairing the dams.

[cripplecreek]

Just the existence of a dam creates wealth. Houses here go for 60 or 70 grand more than larger homes a half mile away because we sit on the lakeshore.

The guy who runs our little party store is considering opening a small bait and tackle shop due to all the fishermen coming into his store.

[DannyTN]

"That’s why I like the term free enterprise and free markets better....seems to more closely link the concepts of freedom and economic reality."

America's founding fathers viewed import tariffs as maximizing liberty. They viewed it as an external tax on foreigners wishing to do business in America, and by that means America was both able to protect it's industries and fund the government without resorting to an "internal" tax on it's own citizens.

[Lakeshark]

If we had an energy policy that allowed for nuclear plants to be built, for oil to be drilled freely, pipelines and refineries to be redone, fracking encouraged, we would have a boom similar to what happened in the eighties, nineties and early oughts.

To have that happen would mean we had a pro free enterprise congress and presidency.

Thirty years of prosperity once again, perhaps even greater than the almost thirty years of prosperity Reagan ushered in.

This is the next great battle in the war for America; Sarah Palin had that one absolutely nailed eight years ago.

[thackney]

Just the existence of a dam creates wealth. Houses here go for 60 or 70 grand more than larger homes a half mile away because we sit on the lakeshore.

If you include the lost wealth of all the submerged lands, do you still come out ahead?

I am in favor of dams. But I think power generations, flood control and water supply are the factors. I am not sure wealth creation is correct.

[ansel12]

I went to one page and clicked through, that sent me to another page which offered me the opportunity to click though a second time to find the article, there isn’t a direct link to the article?

[SatinDoll]

No.

There is no such thing as an “efficient” gas powered generating plant.

Natural gas is most efficient when used directly as a power source; for example, a gas cook range, a gas water heater, or a gas furnace.

Using it to generate electricity is wasteful. Nuclear is the most efficient use of creating electrical energy and hydro the next. Natural gas and coal are much less efficient.

[C. Edmund Wright]

100% right you are!

[mountainlion]

As long as globalists presidents and our government manipulate the system to maximize profits for the globalists we will be under the thumb of people like the council of foreign relations. Their puppets the environmentalists will stop any project at the globalists bidding. The United States has the largest carbon based energy resources in the world and the reason that we are not on top is the lack of free Capitalism.

[C. Edmund Wright]

They also thought slavery was good for liberty too!

[Tenacious 1]

Energy independence, to anyone above a kindergarten IQ, means that on net we are break even or close on energy production. Yes, the way the markets work, some will flow out and some will flow in - but that’s because those markets work with people making their buying, selling, distribution and refining decisions as fits their particualr biz model.

Yes, I figure you get all this already...

Don't be so sure everyone gets that. I have had to splain it to several people.

If we produce more than we use, then we become a net export nation. The private companies (Not owned by gvmnts) bring in revenue, create American jobs and they all pay taxes. We would still import and export regardless of how much we produced.

When America becomes a net export nation, we impact world supply. When/if regulations were loosened where oil producers could cost effectively bring fossil fuels to market right here in the USA AND we had the refining and distribution capacity to keep up with production (for reserves), the futures markets on fossil fuels, specifically oil, would drop.

Reducing the impact of OPEC on the futures market would bring down the price of a barrel of oil as well. If it got low enough, OPEC would fall apart as they might be forced to compete, which could mean they might have to ramp up production to maintain revenue streams at depressed oil prices. In this scenario, we could go back to paying $1.50/gallon of gas or so.

If oil go low enough, assuming US infrastructure was in place and paid for, the world market would correct itself and folks like China might get out of some markets and choose to purchase for cheaper than they can produce thereby increasing the market share for the USA. And so on....

Simply put, we affect the global price of a barrel of oil by significantly increasing the world supply and at a better price.

[Durus]

"They also thought slavery was good for liberty too!

It's hard to take anything you say seriously after that comment.

[C. Edmund Wright]

I had an unction that this tariff Founders blather was all a bunch of bullsh-t, and it is. See CATO destroying the Buchanan led myth:
http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/truth-about-trade-history

As you will see, the reason given for some founders at some points favoring tariffs was because the country was new and the industrys were “infants.” There is reason to believe that even then it was a bad idea, but the point is this: the infant status.

Now it is obvious that excessive tariffs reduce many more freedoms than they increase, and they favor far fewer people than they punish. And they are anti-liberty at their core.

[DannyTN]

"On another day, he might be whining about our trade deficit."

Very good. You're starting to connect the dots. The whole point of the post was that the same free trade mentality that has devastated our industries and produced 23% unemployment will keep us from being energy independence.

By the way look at the chart on this page and see Spain's trade deficits.
Spain's Trade Deficits

Expand the chart out to 10 or 20 years. And then ask yourself the Dr. Phil question, "How's that working for ya?"

How well did high trade deficits work for Spain? The Worst Unemployment Crisis In Modern History Is Unfolding Right Now (Spain 27+%)

How well is it working for us? ShadowStats.com Unemployment