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To: Jvette
Dueling verses huh? Yet understood simply by the fleshly mind?

I have little patience for that. The Muslims have their scales, with one's sins on one side, weighed against "right action" or works on the other. We know that's not the way...

The Mormons interperate as being only after one "does all that they can do". I'm not sure you don't know that's not the way, but I am sure that's not the Way and is certainly not the Gospel.

But you say:

Then what did he need die for? For a one-time baptism? Then after that, one sin again separates?

To which must be answered, that if one is born of the spirit and the water (another requirement spoken by Christ) then those "works which are not works" which you speak of shall follow....yet still not justify.

Would you like the scriptures which indicate that? Casting out devils, healing the sick in his name...but still lacking a certain something? When one finds what that "something" is, then they can know.

Don't throw out Paul for reason of not being able to fully understand him, for he was chosen to explain the difference between the law and the spirit. And no, he didn't give license to sin, either...but as he plainly enough said, one simply cannot finish by way of flesh or works what was begun of spirit in the first place! Substituting one set of works for another still becomes "works of the law" as soon as it is sought to be enforced. Be careful for the language used when speaking of works.

But go ahead, stay under the law if you like. One of these days, you may find that much of or all the "works" outlined in your reply are still filthy rags (if they be not predicated upon and following direct leading of His spirit).

It's not a combo-pack, with us earning by our later works His favor. Without His light, we can't even see what "works" need doing in the first place. Yet when we are shown, then follow and do, then we can be seen as His people, His children.

The emphasis here is to not put the cart before the horse. I'm not sure if you know what I mean by that...but I am certain there are others whom are acquainted with His spirit whom know what I mean.

Even then, those under His blood, are passed over at the judgment, with Christ Himself being the only worthy to open the book [of life]. We that can plead only His blood, need be mindful that it is to Him whom painfully shed it that we make the plea. Such realization can be sobering, yet even then must be grasped, or else what is this blood and this body we eat? Do we eat as even in part justified by our works? No, for the Spirit does not inhabit that sort of approach to His throne. Coming more fully into the light, it is seen that even those works-not-works of law which you seem to be laying down as law (or can be received as again law & duty) are but graces allowed us to extend in His very name towards others.

207 posted on 03/13/2013 6:53:25 PM PDT by BlueDragon (If you want vision open your eyes and see you can carry the light with you wherever you go)
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To: BlueDragon

****Then what did he need die for? For a one-time baptism? Then after that, one sin again separates?****

Not at all and a not unusual misunderstanding of Scripture and Catholic doctrine.

Before His birth, life, death and resurrection when the people of God were under the Law, there was no one who could perfectly fulfill that Law. No one who could perfectly follow that Law.

Even with the yearly sacrifices of atonement by the high priest, the gates of heaven remained closed until that one sacrifice that was the perfect sacrifice, Jesus.

But, again, the works of the Law are not the works which Jesus speaks of in those verses.

I do not throw out Paul, he is very much a part of any Catholic’s life and prayer and Scripture reading. Paul’s message of faith and salvation through grace is no different than the words of Jesus I quoted here.

Faith is a gift of grace and so is salvation, neither can be earned or merited. Both given freely out of love.
But, Jesus clearly says we must obey his commandments. He clearly says, you are my friends if you keep my commands.

Jesus said the two most important commandments are to love God with all your heart, mind, and strength and to love your neighbor as He loves you.

Does this mean that salvation is conditional? Or that God’s love has strings?

Not at all.

Sin weakens our ability to love God and love our neighbor and thus, threatens our friendship with Jesus. He has not stopped loving us but sin may lead us to harden our heart toward Him, even though we not be aware of that hardening.

But, are those sins enough to cause Jesus to deny us on judgement day? St. John’s first letter speaks of sins which lead to death and sins which do not lead to death. Further along in that letter, John mentions not having the love of God if one does not care for his brother/sister who are in need. John also speaks of those who have faith but no works and those who have works but no faith. He definitely connects the two.

In conclusion, faith, grace and salvation are indeed freely ours through Jesus when we make the choice to follow Him and obey His commandments. If we are condemned, it is by our choice to reject salvation through our action or non action. Jesus does call us but we must answer that call.


208 posted on 03/13/2013 7:53:25 PM PDT by Jvette
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