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To: lupie
An experience cannot defy science. An experience actually should define science.

You're taking the experience of one person, which is an odd case to begin with, and saying it establishes science? I find it hard to believe you're saying that because it does no such thing.

True science is the continual observation of data points in order to postulate a reasonable hypothesis or theory that explains those data points and predict what will happen.

All of that is true if you have a sample population and can can show that the results are statistically significant, while using the proper controls. But even then, your results would be significant for that sample population only. You cannot get significance from one repetition.

I had more than one prof in grad school who liked to reference a guy they called "One-Pig Wintrobe." This guy became a legend because he used one pig in his study, and then came to all sorts of hard conclusions based on the data from that one study. One pig, one repetition. Then he published it and spent years defending his nonsense. The profs used to admonish us to never become "One-Pig Wintrobes." Null and void is going one better than "One-Pig Wintrobe" and, apparently, so are you. You and he can be "One-person Wintrobe."

In order to analyze null and void's results statistically, he'd have to establish his conditions explicitly. He's doing/done no such thing.

If null and void were truly interested in the source of his depression, don't you think he should "experience" eating a couple of bananas, or cooked chicken with a glass of juice, and then tell us if he gets depressed? If depression doesn't come from ingesting significantly higher quantities of the same chemical compounds as found in aspartame, then I'd say he has a problem with his hypothesis, such as it is. Same with fybromyalgia. If the chemical compounds found in aspartame exacerbate your symptoms, there is no reason to believe that these same chemical compounds, that are found in bananas, or chicken and red wine, won't cause identical flare ups. This would be a pretty simple and effective comparison to conduct.

Now, if this was 1982, and these claims were being made, I'd say it was possible that the peptide is being absorbed as is and might be reaching the blood brain barrier, and actually making it across. Maybe something is getting to the brain before it gets cleared and that's what's causing the cited symptoms. But this isn't the early 80's, is it? Today, aspartame is the most studied food ingredient in history, and we know that this does not occur because of the massive amount of research that says it doesn't.

Assuming the action taking place, it could be caused by an enzyme deficiency that isn't allowing it to be broken down properly. Folate deficiency has been cited by numerous researchers as the cause for many of the symptoms being blamed on aspartame. If the protein is produced, and the co-factor (folate) isn't there, it cannot become an enzyme. Having that protein just floating around can cause all sorts of complications.

Alcohol dehydrogenase provides a good example. Alcohol dehydrogenase is an enzyme that causes the rapid breakdown of alcohol. Some people have low levels of this enzyme and can't tolerate alcohol (Eskimos). Then there are others who can drink mass quantities of alcohol and not get drunk, because they have a lot of this enzyme. There could be all sorts of reasons for the symptoms being blamed on aspartame, but null and void's feelings...um, I mean, experiences, don't offer much in the way of insight.

Clearly, it's much easier to just blame aspartame because null and void found confirmation of the non-scientific experiment he conducted on the internet. And if you can't trust the internet, who can you trust?

don't say that experience defies science, but raher realize that experience (data) DEFINES science. Look to see if it is a unique experience. If it is, put a mental question mark by both the experience and the theory and wait for more data. Science is NOT exact - it is just a description of things that might happen after certain events. And that is always only as good as the next data point that supports it.

Ok, I've read this several times and still don't know what to make of it exactly. Are you saying that the experience of one person is important? If so, there's absolutely nothing scientific about it. It's one data point. In order to repeat the same experiment you need to know all of the specifics, and be able to repeat it. Does one person make up a legitimate sample population to you? I can't imagine it does, but the experience of one person isn't science.

Aspartame is the most studied food ingredient in history, and there are reams of legitimate research proving there has never been any substantiated, reproducible evidence of any harm coming from it. To believe otherwise, in the face of all the evidence, is to defy science. This is not uncommon. Just look at an organization called CSPI. They engage in the defiance of science every day of the week. Their leader, Michael Jacobson, is one of the most rabid promoters of junk-science in the world -- and he holds a Ph.D. in microbiology from M.I.T.!?? Jacobson and his organization engage in the very same thing as null and void.

Some of his greatest hits:

“We could envision taxes on butter, potato chips, whole milk, cheeses, [and] meat.” — Jacobson, quoted in the Newark Star-Ledger, April 30, 2002

“CSPI is proud about finding something wrong with practically everything.” — CSPI executive director Michael Jacobson, in Washingtonian magazine, February 1994

“I’m not on the fence … about litigation [against restaurants]. I think it’s an extremely important strategy.” — Jacobson, speaking at the Public Health Advocacy Institute’s “Conference on Legal Approaches to the Obesity Epidemic,” Jun 2003

Nice company.

91 posted on 01/11/2013 2:40:09 PM PST by Mase (Save me from the people who would save me from myself!)
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To: Mase
I had more than one prof in grad school who liked to reference a guy they called "One-Pig Wintrobe." This guy became a legend because he used one pig in his study, and then came to all sorts of hard conclusions based on the data from that one study. One pig, one repetition. Then he published it and spent years defending his nonsense. The profs used to admonish us to never become "One-Pig Wintrobes." Null and void is going one better than "One-Pig Wintrobe" and, apparently, so are you. You and he can be "One-person Wintrobe."

Haha, that's funny. It reminds me of a story I heard in grad school, about how someone up the hall from us would measure the same sample three times, and call it a "triplicate." I bet the error bar was really small...

98 posted on 01/11/2013 6:24:25 PM PST by exDemMom (Now that I've finally accepted that I'm living a bad hair life, I'm more at peace with the world.)
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To: Mase

Do you have a science background? If so, When and where did you study? What is your area? Where and when is your experience in pharmacokinetics?

I graduated from Purdue and worked at Bristol Meyers in a R&D pharmaceutics lab.


99 posted on 01/12/2013 5:33:07 AM PST by lupie
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