Posted on 12/20/2012 5:33:30 PM PST by SeekAndFind
WASHINGTON – House Republican leaders abruptly pulled their fallback tax bill from the floor Thursday night, conceding that they did not have the votes to pass it.
“The House did not take up the tax measure today because it did not have sufficient support from our members to pass,” Speaker John A. Boehner said in a statement. “Now it is up to the president to work with Senator Reid on legislation to avert the fiscal cliff.”
The decision was a major setback for the speaker, who was pushing his so-called Plan B to prevent lower tax rates from expiring on most Americans. It came after the House had narrowly approved a plan to suspend planned Pentagon cuts.
With just days to go before more than a half trillion dollars in tax increases and spending cuts kick in, a chasm separates congressional Republicans from President Obama, even though the latest deficit offers from the president and the speaker are numerically very close.
The struggle to win Republican support for a measure that would allow income taxes to rise on a sliver of the top one percent of taxpayers telegraphed a grave decision for the speaker. A deal with the president would almost certainly lose a huge swath of his Republican conference, but it could pass with Democratic support. Does he make that deal and risk a Republican revolt, or do leaders allow the nation to careen off the so-called fiscal cliff?
(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...
What you said!
What's your point? Did you want the Reps to pass this bill and destroy their brand? Or hurt small businesses that file individual returns and eliminate up to 700,000 jobs?
This is a good thing. Boehner and Obama need to negotiate in public. Why should the Reps in the House follow like docile sheep and not have any input into this process?
Boehner made a terrible mistake in 2010 by agreeing to the extension of the tax cuts for just another year instead of making them permanent. He squandered away any leverage he had. And the sequestration deal originated by the WH was a trap. Better to go off the cliff and then we can really start talking about real spending cuts and the long term fiscal problems that beset this country. Only a crisis will get the attention of Congress and the WH. Let the chips fall where they may.
Actually I would have preferred the grand bargain last year where we had a 10-1 spending revenue ratio on the table. Now we are looking at I don’t know what? The deal on the table is 1-1 and now I don’t think we can get that. The chips fall is an appropriate term. Since we are going to shove them over to the Dems. What happens now is we go over cliff then pass senate bill for 250k. It will only take 30 republicans and Dan Burton has said everyone will vote for it.
We also look like idiots doing it. A poll today 53% said republicans are too extreme. If your not in power all you can do is slow down the march to
The left. With a civil war going on how do you think we are going to get back in power? Plan b was a bad bill. It was a bad idea. Boehner is weak. The Tea Party has what 70 votes, maybe. Unless everyone is pulling in the same direction the left will kill us. That is the point. We left the grand bargain on the table las year because it was not ideologically perfect. We let the good be the enemy of the perfect and now we are getting hosed. A lot of this is our own fault. So you will excuse me if seeing where the chips fall sounds like a bad plan.
A strong unified party can do great things. A divided party will get run over. This will mean the 40 most liberal members of our party just became the ones with the most power.
I don't know where you came up with that number, but according to the Woodward book, it was Obama who nixed the Grand Bargain by demanding more revenue than what was agreed upon.
And do you really believe that the Dems want to cut spending? Look what is happening with sequestratration. Both parties cannot agree on how to cut $100 billion dollars a year out of an annual budget of $3.7 trillion.
Unless we reform the entitlement programs, the deficits will continue to grow. We have 10,000 people a day retiring for the next 20 years doubling our population over 65. By 2030 one in five will be 65 or older. And by 2030 there will be just two workers for every retiree down from 3.3 today and 16 in 1950. Medicare and SS costs will go up regardless of what is done to those programs. Medicare has been running in the red since 2008 and SS since 2010.
And now we have Obamacare, another huge unfunded entitlement program that will grow in much the same way as Medicare did. Medicare now costs nine times more than projected.
Since we are going to shove them over to the Dems. What happens now is we go over cliff then pass senate bill for 250k. It will only take 30 republicans and Dan Burton has said everyone will vote for it.
Going over the fiscal cliff really involves going back to the Clinton-era tax rates for everyone. And add on top of that the new taxes associated with Obamacare along with a 31% cut in reimbursements to hospitals and doctors. And there are also the sequestration cuts.
The only reason why Obama is making such an issue about taxing the rich is to destroy the GOP. It raises very little revenue compared to what our deficits are and Obama wants to increase spending on top of the growing costs of the entitlement programs. If the GOP agrees to increase marginal tax rates for the "rich," it will cost many jobs and destroy completely the GOP as the party that doesn't want to raise income taxes and claims that our problem is spending.
We also look like idiots doing it. A poll today 53% said republicans are too extreme. If your not in power all you can do is slow down the march to The left. With a civil war going on how do you think we are going to get back in power?
The reality is that we are not getting back into power anytime soon. We have reached a tipping point thanks to the rapidly changing demographics of this country fueled by immigration, legal and illegal, and minority birthrates. By 2019 half of the children 18 and under will be minorities as classified by the USG and by 2042 half of the country will be minorities. 87% of the 1.2 million legal immigrants that enter the US annually are minorities and almost all of the 500,000 illegal aliens are minorities. With 300,000 to 400,000 anchor babies born in this country to illegals, the demographics will make the Dems the permanent majority party. And I have no doubt that Hillary will be the next President of the US by a landslide.
We left the grand bargain on the table las year because it was not ideologically perfect. We let the good be the enemy of the perfect and now we are getting hosed. A lot of this is our own fault. So you will excuse me if seeing where the chips fall sounds like a bad plan.
That is patently false.
A strong unified party can do great things. A divided party will get run over. This will mean the 40 most liberal members of our party just became the ones with the most power.
If the GOP-controlled House passes a bill that allows the tax rate to increase for the wealthy, the GOP will be divided and destroyed. That is why Obama is pushing it. There may very well be a Third Party movement as a result based largely on Tea Party principles.
Beyond partisan politics and who gains advantage, there are principles and different visions of what the role of government is in our country. As patriots, the GOP must do what is best for the country. At this point, the GOP may have as much influence as it will ever have for the foreseeable future.
If you want to be effective as a negotiator, the other side must believe that you have certain non-negoitable positions. Obama must believe that the GOP will go over the cliff rather than concede on those positions. We will have to deal with the short term consequences up to and including losing power. In the long run, this country is on an unsustainable course. What the Dems want to do will destroy this country. We should not assist them, especially in raising more revenue to keep the collapsing welfare state going a little longer.
We all know what is coming based on the decline of other great nations and civilizations. First, the "rich" (aka business) are raped and taxed to rob them of their wealth, Second, the battle of Guns versus Butter, which butter usually wins since it has more constituents. Third, taxes are raised on everyone including things like VAT, fees, higher income tax rates, etc. Then, the economy collapses and a man on horseback takes over to restore civil order.
We see this happening in Europe now. For decades, the US has provided the security umbrella to allow them to develop their welfare state. But now, it is collapsing and their is very little to tax. Many have already cut benefits and their public sector, but it is not enough. They have eaten their seed corn and are now in a slow death spiral. We are going the same way. Do you want to fight now or kick the can down the road until we run out of road? The solutions will be far more painful than they are now.
The problem is with this negotiating tactic you have diminished the Tea Party. A bill will get passed. Bills are passed by the fringes. Establishment republicans will pass a bill with a majority of Dems. Will that bill have any tea party influence if establishment republicans team up with Dems?
That is what will happen. We may have the same principals but I am for getting the best deal possible. I do not believe a divided party will get us a better deal.
Time will tell.
Tax bills MUST originate in the House ~ what part of MUST don’t you understand?
For the last decade the libs have been telling us the Bush tax cuts are for the rich. Now they tell us we will go over the cliff if we don’t save them for 98% of the people. Got it.
I am not going to argue a fact that the senate passed a bill to extend Bush tax cuts under 250k. Since it is not a NEW tax it does not. Yes new taxes and spending must originate in the house. I am aware of the rules.
Doesn’t matter anyway we will go over cliff and republicans will be blamed and in truth after yesterday we look like idiots. 53% of Americans see us as too extreme. The brand is hurting, bad.
The problem for the Democrats is they do not control the legislative agenda of the house ~ they used to, but they don't now. The Senate can send over all sorts of stuff but they can't force the house to vote on it anyway, nor can the minority party, which takes us into the so-called 'discharge petition', where you might have democrats and republicans both demanding a bill being taken up ~ and there the Speaker still has lots of options ~ mostly to delay indefinitely.
To pass an Obamugabe bill in the house you have to take over the house.
Boehner imagines he has enemies trying to take over the house ~ he thinks they're Conservatives. All of which means he's a madman who must be deposed as soon as possible.
Doesn't say just 'new taxes' ~ the specific reference is to 'raising revenue' ~
So what is a win at this point? What do you think we can get?
If such a bill were to pass without the votes of 80 or so conservative GOP congressmen, it would effectively divide and destroy the party. We are talking about the long term not one vote. It will be a Pyrrhic victory for Boehner and the GOP and a real victory for Obama and the Dems.
Currently, the GOP enjoys a margin of 242 to 193 in the 112th Congress. That declines to 234-200 in the 113th Congress. The GOP controls the House and needs to assert its authority rather than acting as though it has no leverage or defense against what Obama and the Dems want.
That is what will happen. We may have the same principals [sic] but I am for getting the best deal possible. I do not believe a divided party will get us a better deal.
If it means compromising basic principles, then there should be no deal. We need to get away from this mindset that we must make a deal to postpone the next crisis and start dealing with the macro issues that are sending this country into a cosmic economic wormhole.
Obama intentionally creates this crisis atmosphere that forces Reps to accept these last minute deals without any real discussion of the long term effects. He did it with Obamacare --you have to pass the bill before you can find out what is in it--, raising the debt limit coupled with sequestration, and now we have the fiscal cliff crisis that has an articificial Dec 31 deadline. The Reps will again be stampeded into "getting the best deal possible." But this will not address our spending problems and entitlement reform, the real drivers of debt and deficit. Now is the time to dig in our heels and force a national conversation on where this nation stands on our fiscal problems. The increased taxes on everyone, the plunge in the stock market, and a return to a recession (which may have happened anyway) should get everyone's attention and lend some urgency to the discussions.
Getting the best deal possible will divide the GOP not unite it. Again, the only reason that Obama is pushing this narrative that the rich must pay their fair share is to destroy the GOP. It raises very little revenue in the grand scheme of things. And the "rich" (those earning over $250K) will already see large tax increases due to Obamacare. And Obama has already positioned himself as the defender of the entitlement programs with the GOP being the mean-spirited grinch that wants to take away benefits for the old and poor children. Even if there were some small changes to entitlements in any proposed deal, the Dems and Obama would say they were forced into it by the Reps.
Time will tell
Time is running out for the US of A. The longer we fail to address our long term fiscal problems, the more painful and draconian the solutions will become.
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