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To: Boogieman
As I said before, the person needing the transplant’s right to life isn’t interfered with in the least if they do not receive a new kidney, since they will simply continue to live out their natural lifespan unimpeded. Not providing someone with the means to extend their life is simply not equivalent to depriving them of their life.

This implies that your objection is that the woman seeking the abortion is acting to kill the embryo. I would agree, she should not have the right to strictly kill it, but she has full right to remove it from her body, to stop it from using her womb against her will. If the embryo is simply removed from her womb intact and set aside to continue out its natural life for as long as it can, would this satisfy your concern?

Another case that that is much more germaine to this situation would be Good Samaritan laws. The reason those laws are just is because in this conflict, the harm caused by obligating the Samaritan to try to help is usually quite minimal, while the harm caused to the party in distress if the Samaritan is not obligated to help can be extreme, to the point of death. Therefore, the proper resolution of the conflict is to say that the rights of the party in distress temporarily take precedence over the rights of the Samaritan.

Yes, but Good Samaritan laws do not apply to the donation of bodily resources (blood, organs). Again, the state has generally respected the bodily integrity of the people. Giving blood can be a fairly simple process and be minimally inconvenient, but no one, that I'm aware, is required to give blood.

Now, this doesn’t mean you must drive around looking for people to help; the laws only come into play when a situation arises that creates the conflict that it addresses. That is why your hypothetical “forced organ donation” scenario is ridiculous. There is no actual conflict between parties that would create a need for such a law to resolve the conflict. If I forcibly removed your kidney, then I would be infringing on your right to life, but simply not providing you with my kidney does no such thing.

I have to say, I honestly do not see a legitimate conflict between the raped woman and the embryo. The woman, who existed first, was forcibly impregnated. The embryo is now using her organs to survive. How can the law require her to continue to allow the embryo to grow inside her, using her bodily resources and putting her body through the normal stresses and health complications that often accompany a full term pregnancy? This burden can, in no way, be seen as minimally inconvenient and is a clear violation of her bodily integrity.

The reason I continue to bring up organ donation is that a law such as you propose would raise the bar so radically as to what innocent individuals in society should be expected to provide other individuals in need that it could conceivably affect all of us (and should, if we're to have a fair application of the principle). If a rape victim is required to help the embryo, why shouldn't you or I be required to help the kidney patient down the street? We're not responsible for his predicament, but the woman is certainly not responsible for that of the embryo either.

285 posted on 08/22/2012 3:52:14 PM PDT by BearArms
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To: BearArms

” If the embryo is simply removed from her womb intact and set aside to continue out its natural life for as long as it can, would this satisfy your concern?”

No, since that act is itself an act of killing, unless the child is old enough to survive outside the womb, and even then, it would be a crime to let the child die due to neglect.

“Yes, but Good Samaritan laws do not apply to the donation of bodily resources (blood, organs).”

No, and I didn’t mean to imply that they did. I’m simply offering that as a good example of a law where you may be obligated to subordinate your rights to the rights of another, even though the conflict arises of no fault of your own. You didn’t cause an injured person to appear on your doorstep, and you didn’t plan your day around dropping everything to help them, but it is still the just thing to do, and in some cases, the legally obligated thing to do.

“I have to say, I honestly do not see a legitimate conflict between the raped woman and the embryo. The woman, who existed first, was forcibly impregnated. The embryo is now using her organs to survive. How can the law require her to continue to allow the embryo to grow inside her, using her bodily resources and putting her body through the normal stresses and health complications that often accompany a full term pregnancy?”

The conflict is pretty simple. The child has an inherent right to life, regardless of how it got here. The woman has rights as well, which she may be impeded from exercising while she is pregnant with the child. She cannot “unimpregnate” herself in order to remove the impediment; it can only be done by killing the child, or by waiting for it to be born, or miscarried naturally. So, if the woman wants to exercise the option of killing the child, it creates a direct conflict with the child’s right to life.

“This burden can, in no way, be seen as minimally inconvenient and is a clear violation of her bodily integrity.”

The burden doesn’t have to be minimally inconvenient. It merely has to be less of a burden than deprivation of life, which pretty much every conceivable harm or burden is. I’m sure if you put the choice to the woman: carry the child to term, or we can kill YOU, she would choose to carry the child. That alone demonstrates her inconvenience or harm is less than the harm that abortion would inflict on the child.

“The reason I continue to bring up organ donation is that a law such as you propose would raise the bar so radically as to what innocent individuals in society should be expected to provide other individuals in need that it could conceivably affect all of us (and should, if we’re to have a fair application of the principle).”

I’m not proposing anything radical, in fact, I’m not proposing any new law at all. I’m simply advocating just application of a law that has been in effect, pretty much since time immemorial, in one form or another: thou shalt not kill. I’m not saying the rape victim needs to go to the OB/Gyn every week, or take all her pre-natal supplements, or get a nursery ready. Just don’t kill the baby, since we are not allowed to go around killing people because we feel like it, or because they inconvenience us. The application of that law, in this special circumstance, may be more burdensome than usual, but it isn’t anything radical or novel that could lead to the kind of legislation you are worried about.

“If a rape victim is required to help the embryo, why shouldn’t you or I be required to help the kidney patient down the street?”

No, because this isn’t about making a law requiring forced charity or aid. It’s about having your rights abridged in order to minimize the harm caused by the rights of two persons being in conflict. There is no conflict between you exercising your rights and the kidney patient exercising his.


286 posted on 08/22/2012 4:21:17 PM PDT by Boogieman
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