Romney's Faith, Silent but Deep

New York Times ^ | May 19, 2012 | Jodi Kantor

[greyfoxx39]

When Mitt Romney embarked on his first political race in 1994, he also slipped into a humble new role in the Mormon congregation he once led.

-SNIP-

Mr. Romney’s penchant for rules mirrors that of his church, where he once excommunicated adulterers and sometimes discouraged mothers from working outside the home.

-SNIP-

Clayton M. Christensen, a business professor at Harvard and a friend from church, said the question that drove the Sunday school classes — how to apply Mormon gospel in the wider world — also drives Mr. Romney’s life.

When Mr. Romney’s former Sunday school students listen to him campaign, they sometimes hear echoes of messages he delivered to them years before: beliefs that stem at least in part from his faith, in a way that casual observers may miss. He is not proselytizing but translating, they say — taking powerful ideas and lessons from the church and applying them in another realm.

-SNIP-

In Mormonism, salvation depends in part on constantly making oneself purer and therefore more godlike.

-SNIP-

But many also see a gap between his religious ideals — and his political tactics. The chasm has been hard to reconcile, even though people close to him say he is serious about trying to do so.

[duffee]

Apparently lying and denigrating others (allowing it to be done in your behalf by you minions is the same as doing it yourself)doesn’t count.

[svcw]

Tell me what part of my post is a lie?
You made the charge, prove it.

[Colofornian]

From the article: In Mormonism, salvation depends in part on constantly making oneself purer and therefore more godlike.

Yes. "Making oneself..." Pure Pharisaical-like legalism.

Such attempts @ "making oneself purer and...more godlike" nullifies grace. Consider these three passages the apostle Paul wrote to the church @ Galatia:

Galatians 2:21:
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing! [My note: If we de-magnify God's grace, we set it apart...and belittle the cross of Christ, which the Mormons don't honor, anyway]

Galatians 3:1-3: 1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?

Galatians 5:4: You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. [Example of grace nullification]

The apostle Paul also told the Romans – 11:5-6: 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then IT CANNOT BE BASED ON WORKS; IF IT WERE, GRACE WOULD NO LONGER BE GRACE.

You see, it's almost as if the book of Galatians was God's anticipated book specifically written for Mormons! Why? Well, not only because Mormons are our legalists of this era, but it's another Gospel:

Mormonism is 'another gospel' -- supposedly delivered by 'an angel from heaven':

Galatians 1:6-9: 6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

Justification by faith -- something Mormons say is replaced by 'works'

...know that a person is NOT justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and NOT by the works of the law, because by the works of the law NO ONE will be justified...21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!” (Gal. 2:16, 21)

Faith or Works of the Law

1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your BELIEVING what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “BELIEVED God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” 7 Understand, then, that those who have FAITH are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles BY FAITH, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” 9 So those who RELY ON FAITH are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. 10 For ALL who RELY on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do EVERYTHING written in the Book of the Law.” 11 Clearly NO ONE who RELIES on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live BY FAITH.” 12 The law is NOT based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.” 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that BY FAITH we might RECEIVE the promise of the Spirit. (Gal. 3:1-14)

Spiritual Legalism IS Bondage

7 So you are NO LONGER a slave, but God’s child; and since you are his child, God has made you also an heir. 8 Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods...we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman. 1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. (Gal. 4:7-8, 31, 5:1)

The Book of Mormon preaches the exact opposite of justification by faith:

* 2 Nephi 25:23: ...ye are saved by grace, AFTER ALL YOU can DO." (2 Nephi 25:23)

* Helaman 12:24: "...may God grant, in his great fulness, that men might be brought unto repentance and good works, that they might be restored unto grace for grace, ACCORDING to their WORKS." (Helaman 12:24)

* Moroni 10:32: “Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and IF ye shall deny yourselves of ALL ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, THEN is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.”

The Mormon teaching is clear above:
(1) Grace doesn't kick in for the Mormon UNTIL he's done "ALL" he can do... (2 Nephi 25:23) (All spiritually, relationally, physically, emotionally, intellectually, etc.)
(2) Grace is handed out in Mormonism tit-for-tat -- "according to works" (Helaman 12:24) This redefines the very word as a "free gift"
(3) In Mormonism, you have to FIRST deny yourself of ALL ungodliness -- not just some -- and ALSO love God with ALL your might, mind and strength -- and THEN God's grace kicks in (Moroni 10:32)

Utter hopelessness is this religious legalism of despair.

[Colofornian]

Apparently lying and denigrating others...

Do you know that when you call others "liars" without proof you are denigrating others?

Do you always go around refuting the points you are trying to make on others with evidence that applies to yourself?

[Colofornian]

If Romney is like another Mormon Bishop I knew, I'd vote for him without question. The man I knew could be trusted with anything or by anyone, especially by the most innocent and helpless.

Could either of these "bishops" -- Bishop Romney or the other one you know -- be trusted with their own godhood & running their own planet? (As Mormons profess?)

[See post #28 for a few details about Mormons believing they are gods]

Could either of those bishops be trusted with receiving worship? Receiving glory and adulation? Receiving prayer appeals?

You see you've neglected a key component here:

When temple Mormons behave as legalistically expected, of course they'll be on their best outward behavior: That's exactly what you'd expect from people auditioning for full-blown godhood!

I'd be interested in knowing, GBA: Name me ONE candidate or potential candidate you'd vote for in some future POTUS election if they announced their divinity tomorrow?

Gingrich? Santorum? Sarah Palin? Fill in the blank?

Which one of these candidates' vulnerability to deception and lack of obvious discernment gets a free pass from you if they SINCERELY thought they were already a "god in embryo" on their way to full-blown godhood?

If they don't get a free pass from you re: an eval of who's going to be THE leader of the free world, why Mormons?

[greyfoxx39]

Are you sure that Duffee's comment wasn't referring to your comment "Romney has not done anything that would remove him from that high level".

"Having your minions do it for you doesn't count"

I read the whole post differently from you.

Duffee, care to clear things up?

[svcw]

duffee, if grey is correct and I miss read your post I apologize. Can you clear this up? Thanks.

[greyfoxx39]

Speaking of the Republican party, I received the "please donate" letter from the RNC the other day.

I taped a nickel to the reply, noted "five cents for RINOs" and told them to take me off the list.

As to "the sin of speaking out against the one they are proclaiming to be our leader and nominee" the ABOs are doing their damndest to excommunicate from FR anyone who isn't toeing the line.

I'll vote for Virgil Goode and down ticket for conservative candidates. It's MY vote and MY decision...not anyone else's.

[GBA]

I've known a few people who bailed out and their stories were jaw dropping enough that I had trouble believing it.

As groups go, they were pretty thick in a couple of places I've lived, mostly were good neighbors and co-workers and the Bishop I worked for at 18 was an excellent boss.

I still wish I could have convinced that one former morman to marry me. That girl was unforgettably fine.

She and her brother definitely felt the same way you do and were happy to have gotten out.

[GBA]

I'd be interested in knowing, GBA: Name me ONE candidate or potential candidate you'd vote for in some future POTUS election if they announced their divinity tomorrow?

Divinity? I can honestly say I have never considered a candidate's divinity before, only their positions and actions.

At this point, the only things Romney has going for him are he's not obama and he's still not obama.

Romney's positions and record as governor along with his campaign tactics are total deal breakers, unless he as a "Paul's conversion" on several vitally important issues.

Then, we might have a chance.

Otherwise, trying to beat evil with lesser evil is insanity and worse.

In fact, that strategy is more or less why we are where we are now.

And now that's the plan for saving ourselves???

"This is like deja vu all over again."

[duffee]

It was in reference to lies and distortions and the tactics used by the Romney campaign in their attacks on Newt Gingrich and what amounts to the same in covering the Romney record of flip flops with specific reference to to the effect of Romneycare on Catholic Charities in Mass. Do you believe Harry Reid is truthful? I equate lying and misrepresentation with adultry and other sins.

Romney doesn’t have the locked up 1144 delegates or the nomination yet and I will withold any support of him until one of those two things happen and then I will look at my options. I fully expect Romney to be the nominee, I have never voted for anyone for any office that was not a Republican, I will do what needs to be done, I have performed many un-pleasant chores in my life some having to do with septic tanks and some having to do with voting.

I do not understand what you question about my post unless you are prepared to tell me that Romney and his campaign and those campaigning in his behalf including the PACS have been truthful. Do you also believe Harry Reid is truthful?

[greyfoxx39]

I had no question about your post except that the wording caused some misreading by other posters. You have cleared it up now.

[RedMDer]

Keep FR Running Let's get to Yellow!

[duffee]

I sent comment 51 to greyfoxx I also should have sent it to SCVW and Colofornian.

It was in reference to lies and distortions and the tactics used by the Romney campaign in their attacks on Newt Gingrich and what amounts to the same in covering the Romney record of flip flops with specific reference to to the effect of Romneycare on Catholic Charities in Mass. Do you believe Harry Reid is truthful? I equate lying and misrepresentation with adultry and other sins.

Romney doesn’t have the locked up 1144 delegates or the nomination yet and I will withold any support of him until one of those two things happen and then I will look at my options. I fully expect Romney to be the nominee, I have never voted for anyone for any office that was not a Republican, I will do what needs to be done, I have performed many un-pleasant chores in my life some having to do with septic tanks and some having to do with voting.

I do not understand what you question about my post unless you are prepared to tell me that Romney and his campaign and those campaigning in his behalf including the PACS have been truthful. Do you also believe Harry Reid is truthful?

[svcw]

Thanks D.

[duffee]

I was not talking about your post, I was talking about Romney, his campaign, PACS and his minions such as Governor Christie who was called numerous times on the $300,000 fine p-laced on Newt which was not a fine but he persisted in calling it that. That is a lie.

A little late getting to the point, I overlooked this post, I apologize for any confusion but it was probably caused by me.

[duffee]

Your very welcome, I really hate misunderstandings. I had read one of the later post and missed the post I just replied to but NO, I never thought you lied or misrepresented. Thank You.

duffee

[freedomfiter2]

Oh come on, that’s one of the only positive things I’ve ever said about Mutt.

[contrarian]

In an attempt to inject a little levity into the serious business of back stabbing of America.....Am I the only one who read the title SILENT BUT DEADLY ?

[T Minus Four]

The Mormon religion is a river that is a mile wide and 1/4 inch deep.