“First of all “water boarding” and “sleep deprivation” is not torture.
This statement is absurd on its face. Both are definitively torture. They are inhuman and unAmerican.”
I am happy to see you have unilaterally taken it upon yourself to define behavior that is “unAmerican”. Your sanctimony expresses your own values not necessarily those of a large sector of Americans.It especially does not express my values because I agree that controlled enhanced interrogation techniques such as waterboarding and sleep deprivation can be effective to a certain extent to get them talking.Then it becomes a delicate matter of separating the disinformation from the kernels of truth.Because it may be distasteful to some and because it is a difficult task does not mean you do not do it.Further, because it may not work in one circumstance does not mean it will not in another.
The Army Field manuals you cited are bureaucratic documents to govern the conduct of large masses of troops in the field who may have a difficult time discriminating what degree of interrogation constitutes “torture” so the manual applies a blanket prohibition against pretty much everything beyond basic questioning. Note the catchall reference to prohibiting “unpleasant” treatment.Pretty silly on its face as “unpleasant” is undefined. Is “unpleasant” treatment torture or unAmerican?
At higher levels of intelligence as relates to the CIA that can discriminate and apply techniques under controlled circumstances, Army Field manuals have no application nor relevancy.
One last thing, John McCain may have expressed his disapproval of enhanced interrogation techniques but he will be the first one to tell you from experience that it does work.Don’t listen to his words.Read his book. There are some techniques that are and should be off limits. But sleep deprivation and waterboarding are not such techniques.
My dear Chuckee I don’t care what a “large sector of Americans” thinks. I am a republican, a Christian and an American and my values supersede those of the mob. That alone makes torture, including waterboarding and sleep deprivation, wrong.
If on a jury someone were accused of waterboarding Chuckee and keeping Chuckee up for days on end, I’d consider it torture and move to convict accordingly. Torture of enemy combatants or terrorists by Americans is nearly always wrong and becomes a recruiting tool for the enemy. The only exception is the rare “hot” need to know - it works mainly in the movies.
Your argument that the rarefied field of highly trained, objective and competent torturers allows for effective torture doesn’t hold water with the experts themselves or the science of interrogation. The article itself, along with objective fact, point this out. We had to waterboard KSM 183 times. If it were so effective shouldn’t it have worked much, much earlier?
Don’t get me wrong. Kill the enemy in combat, destroy his means of support, and eliminate their will to fight. Effective counter-terrorism and counter-insurgency techniques can include appropriate violence, just not torture. Long term the dangerous to liberty “War on Terror” will be won in the madrassas and mosques and even through liberty and econoomics and not on the battlefield. The idea of Islamic terrorism must be destroyed.
Conservatives shouldn’t shoot the message just becaue they don’t like the messenger. Torture is unAmerican. It isn’t effective, nor is it in keeping with our values. Cheney, who I otherwise like and admire, is wrong. Since the anti-torture movement has been compromised by liberal surrender monkeys conservatives shouldn’t be knee-jerk for it. We should regain the moral high ground and take the issue away.
The three fundamental questions are: 1. Is torture effective? 2. Is torture in keeping with American values and our Constitution? 3. Is it in our national interest. The answer to all three is “no”. Do the research yourself and you’ll come around.